Why So Many Recruiters Feel Stuck

SPEAKER_02 0:00

They're stuck. Like, I I met a guy at the end of last week who like his electric was going to get turned off. And he was like a million dollar biller.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

If if people don't adapt and don't change, they will die.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Welcome to Retrain Search, the podcast, where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Nice to see you again, Lou.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

It is. It feels like we haven't done this for ages. Welcome back, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

It's been a while.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

It has been a while, but so much has been going on, and we wanted to bring some stuff to the table today because there's been so much change over the last few months. I mean the recruitment industry's been changing quite dramatically for the last couple of years, but I think it's just accelerating so much, and the stuff that we share and we put out there and we do, and the work that we do, and the amount of people that we interact with, the amount of different recruitment businesses and different um layers within those organizations and different geographies, different industries, like it couldn't be broader, really, the view that we have on the recruitment industry. And somebody said this to me the other day. He said, What are you seeing? Like, tell me everything that you're seeing, because he said, I can't think of anybody in the industry that interacts with as many people at as many different levels in as many places and as many industries and as many countries as you guys do. And he's probably right.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, I do 40, what, 40 calls a week probably.

unknown 2:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I do something similar, you know?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Mine are similar, and they're you know, they're a mixture of one man bands, massive multinational agencies, they're true executive, you know, top of the chain search firms to, you know, warehouse pickers and packers recruiters or or lorry driver HGGV recruiters, like it couldn't be um further spread from you know sub-Saharan Africa into Japan and Eastern Europe even and UK, US

A Global View Of Market Change

SPEAKER_02 2:45

and all your normal spots and and Canada and Australia. So we yeah, like what are you what are you seeing? That's what I what I wanted to talk about or give people a view on today is as much as possible in terms of what we're seeing.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Uh I mean to set the scene, I I think the biggest changing I'm seeing now from maybe 18 months ago. I think everybody knew what was coming down the road that there was going to be a lot of change with AI, with the growth of internal talented, like I think everybody knew that there was a change coming and it's been uh on everybody's radar for a little bit of time. I think we're at a point now where it's no longer on the radar, it's kind of slapping everyone in the face.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Well, I I I think everybody is at a point now from the people I'm speaking to where they know they have to start making some changes to remain competitive, to continue growing, and the most dangerous thing they can do right now is stand still and think else about I see a real difference between and I and the other thing that um I do quite a lot of is speak at events and there I'll meet you know 100 people in a day, you know, whereas uh you know that might be over several weeks here, and we've got what 400 people in our search foundations program and 60 people in our mastery. So um it's pretty broad, but I s I notice because what we tend to deal with and we most of it is people who are moving, are wanting to develop into higher value work, are wanting to um work more closely with clients, are wanting more commitment from clients, and there's a whole other side to the change that's happening, and that's agencies that want to get um faster, they want to be able to provide um you know an automated services to their clients, they want to really lean into like speed, efficiencies, they want to trim down, kind of reduce the human touch, really. So there's that we I see these and I see that more externally to what we do because obviously that isn't what we do. Um, and I when I'm at these kind of speaker events, I tend to see and listen to the talks where they're talking a lot about agents and and automation and outsourcing, which which again's been a been around for a while, and then you know, they'll wheel me out to do the piece on going um higher value or uh getting more commitment from clients. But I'm what I'm seeing from where I sit is the people that you know come on to calls with me that I haven't you know met yet or haven't worked with is that they're kind of not sure which way to go. And they're kind of s you know needing to make a decision whether to whether to they're they're stock, basically, so they they can't compete with these really the people that are getting, you know, really deep on AI and even internal talent teams are getting really sophisticated and much more

Two Paths: Automation Or High Touch

SPEAKER_02 6:10

sophisticated than they were in their use of of tools and tech. I don't know, not all of them are, some of them aren't so, but they're trying and they're struggling with that, and they and they say they're fighting against these, you know, these internal agencies or um lower fees. Um but they they're working on stuff that they haven't got commitment from clients, and so they're stuck. Like I I'm I met a guy um at the end of last week who like his electric was gonna get turned off and he was like a million dollar biller.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Do you know what? I just you know, I I think back to the days when I had a contingent recruiter. And listen, I I'm just talking I'm talking openly and honestly here. I've got uh you know, I've got a horse in the race haven't I that wanting as many people for me to retain as possible. Of course I have, like I'm really passionate about that. But if I put that to one side and I think I I absolutely think contingent has its place, right? Like it always has. There are some recruiters out there that make a shit ton of cash working with no commitment and playing their volume game, and that's fine. If I think back to my days in that world, and if I was making that decision now, probably the only part of the contingent process that gave me some comfort in letting me sleep at nine was that even though it was a race, even though I had no commitment, I knew that the difference maker might be me. And I'd back myself over the other 10, 15, 20 recruiters that were working on that vacancy. And I think now if I was doing that but with agents and in an AI world where that's not really my gig. I I I'm thinking I've I've now I've now I've lost that. That the only bit that gave me comfort, like I've lost that now because I don't know if Steve down the road's got a better agent than me. I don't know. Or is more tech savvy or got better software or has got a better back and has spent more money on it, or yeah, yeah. Like I I just I just I feel like I've lost all control, so it's uh scary, yeah, it's scary. It's a scary spot.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

And I put um a post on LinkedIn recently to say, which was a kind of follow-up post from the stats, because we shared a load of stats um on the contingent the big, big, big contingent agencies are feeling this like in a big, big way, aren't they? In a massive way. So the Robert uh halves and the you know and the page are all down, their revenues, their profits are all down. And year on year, actually now, and then your uh executive search firms, your Hydreich and Struggles, your Russell Rennes corn fairies, they're all up year on year. And and so I've been sharing that. I mean, that's not a coincidence. I think so.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

I think I think in the latest update we gave on that, I think the interesting bit for me was I think it was page group off the top of my head, the only part of their business that's grow last balls are the search division.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Exactly, yeah, it's true. It's true, and that's not not a coincidence either. Um, and the most recent post that I put out was to say that you know the gap between contingent and retained is getting bigger. And one of um one one of the comments, thank you, Will, uh Grady, for your input, was to say it's not the gap between retained and contingent that's getting bigger. It's it's the gap between it's about what what humans can do, what AI can do and what it can't do. And and and that's it. Like I totally agree. It's just the symptom of that that you see is then that retained firms end up flying because retained is retained requires the stuff that AI can't do.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

And you liking it still I I still I still love that I remember um the in-person that we did in Manchester. I think it was Dave Plummer said the worst bit about artificial intelligence is that it's artificial.

unknown 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Oh my god, it's so it's so true, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Oh, he's so smart, isn't he? Thank you, David Plummer. Um but y yeah, and you liken this to a doctor, a doctor's surgery,

Why Contingent Feels Riskier Now

SPEAKER_02 10:40

don't you, or a consultation with a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, I mean I I mean my my thoughts are if I go in to see a doctor at GP and I've got an issue, and effectively what they do is go on a computer in front of me and go onto Chat GPT or coordinate my symptoms and it shows out an answer, what's wrong with me. I I really don't have a great deal of confidence in that recommendation.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Well actually you can do a lot of diagnosis yourself on Chat GPT now for generic stuff, can't you?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Like it's I understand and I think we'll all agree it's probably the most dangerous thing you can do. You know, you end up you you end up with a s you end up with a spot on your nose and to yourself, you're gonna die in the next four months.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Exactly that. Whereas actually when you go to see a consultant, you know, and over the last few years, you and me yourself asked health worries and the big C and that type of stuff, actually what fills you with confidence is going and sitting down with a consultant that's been doing this for 25-30 years, who says, Don't worry, Miss Archer, don't worry, Mr. Taylor. Like I I've done this thousands of times, and this is what happens, and this is how it goes, how we fix it, and this is what you can expect. Um they're talking from experience and they're using that expertise and that knowledge, and that's hard-earned, and that's acquired over many, many years, and that can't be replaced by a computer. Yeah, and it's exactly the same with what we do. You know, yes, customers buy results, of course, they they want the candidate, but actually, if you think about the best recruiters, if you think about the best relationships, they have experience and it's a human judgment, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 12:16

It's not just human judgment, it's the specialist expertise and experience and deep industry experience and human nature and human behaviour experience, not just industry experience. It's all of that rolled into that specialist, that consultant that you go and see for whatever it is, you know, your problem is that you wouldn't leave to AI or a generic, you know, a general practitioner, a GP. You you wouldn't, because you you want to see a specialist and and that's it. You know, Will is right, that's the gap. That's the gap between retained and contingent. That's it right there. Are you enjoying this so far? Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories, and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it, or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff. And it's working great. I love it. I love it. Like this is just it's just getting better and better and better for for our industry, I think.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, m my view is if I was I look at recruitment as a market, the people that I think of are at Melchist are the ones with splinters in their ass that are sitting on the fence. Yeah. That like that's my like if if if people don't adapt and don't change, they will they will die.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

So so they I I think people need to be picking a lane and and committing to that lane. I am um as we all know, I am not the AI guru or the most tax savvy tech savvy person. So if people choose to go down the AI route, I'm not the best person to speak to. I would personally choose the let's go high touch, low volume route.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Um but I think people just need to pick a lane and and commit more. Maybe maybe we should get someone that on the podcast, actually one of the next few episodes, that has gone down that AI volume lane. Really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

We definitely should. I'd love to know more about what that takes. Because, you know, it in the same way that being able to apply that human that human judgment that apply that you know, years and years of specialist expertise and in in you know, candidate management, human behaviour, seeing, reading between the lines and all those things that that we do as experienced recruiters that have been doing it for a long time, combined with industry expertise, you know, in the same way that that well, that can't be replaced uh by AI. And it it also can't be done on a on a no-win, no-fee basis. It is not commercially viable to be applying that kind of well, alongside of the rigour of the process that you put you need to put in place to be able to execute work properly. Um that requires discipline and diligence and the application of and learning, you know, learning new new skills, new techniques, making sure that your process is what it needs to be, because there's gonna be a there's gonna be a level up because a lot of people have been, you know, applying some expertise and applying their experience, and the vast majority of people that we meet, that you and I meet, Jordan, are really, really good recruiters, but and they've been doing this for years, but there's they've they've never worked with a they've never worked for a corn fairy or a hydric or so when else, they don't really know what that process needs to look like on a retained basis.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

If they if they're going to um operate with some financial commitment from a client, they usually don't really know what the difference should be between and that and that's been that's been fine for years because for years they've been doing the odd retainer, like you can muddle through the odd type, but actually you get to a point where you're you're relying on that revenue stream to be a successful business, and you've got four, five, six retainers on at any given time, you have to have that process.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah, totally. And you can't afford to just have stuff kicking around that doesn't, you know, that doesn't go well, or you know, the client gets disappointed, or you can't find

The Specialist Factor AI Cannot Copy

SPEAKER_02 16:55

the candidates and there's no guardrails for shit. You know, we talk about this sort of this stuff all the time. But in the same way that, you know, getting good at that and putting those missing pieces in place to be able to get where um to be able to make that that work, the same is true for the you know, the opposite where it I mean, I can only imagine the level of commitment and investment of time and energy and effort and resources that needs to go into figuring out what your tech stack needs to look like, what outside firms to use to support you with it, you know, weeding through the snake oil salesman of tech that sounds amazing but isn't, and oh my god, like I, you know, I'd love to find out what that actually is like from someone that's done it and and know and that's the thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Like, because if you think about where it is now just in terms of AI, I would expect still feel and look to follow what they did within six months.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah, exactly, because it changes every fucking day, doesn't it? Sorry, I'm a bit sweary today. Sorry, audience. Near the one.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

We'll we'll bleep it out.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Bleep them out, yeah, because you'll bleep them out. Yeah, it'd be very interesting to do that, I think.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Right, that's my task. I'm gonna make that up to do. I'm gonna find someone to bring on to the next one.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Well, everyone's listening and they've got a recommendation of someone that's done that and been on that journey and done really well with it, but obviously been on a journey that they can I can't imagine anybody that's that's doing well with it hasn't been on some sort of journey. Um someone said something really interesting to you the other day, and I thought it was really good. Everything that all good things, all the good things that happen come at a cost. Everything, everything good in your life, you know, having money, having kids, having a ma wonderful marriage, you know, whatever it is, always, always there's a cost associated with that. Sometimes you're not gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Listen, listen, look, I'm a Liverpool for I've had 20 years of coming before some good times. So yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

You know, I've chosen to, you know, want to pursue a path of having a good career and you know being successful in my work, and that has meant that I haven't, you know, haven't spent I didn't spend as much time with the kids as I wanted to when I was younger. Like that's a big cost. I had to pay the price for that. But equally, everything bad and challenging in your life and hard times, there's always something good. There's always something good in it. Something good always, even if it's simply gratitude for what you do have if something gets taken away, or you know, an illness that makes you save a life more or helps you see things more clearly, like there's always, always, always something good. And it's about the you know, I don't think either one of these two paths is bad or not as good as the other. It's just they both come at a cost. It's what do you want to spend, you know, what do you what cost and and you've got to accept there's gonna be challenges along the way, but good stuff will be.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

And I wonder whether anyone that's listening that's kind of at that crossroads thinking which path do I go down. I wouldn't I suppose what what would you say, Lee, if you were uh if you were speaking to someone at that crossroads and they said, you know, what are the things that that you would look at and go that makes your desk or your business today pretty well suited to a retained model. You know, if someone's thinking of moving down that low touch high touch, low volume you know, what what are the things that you think would make that person right for? I mean the first one for me is is typically the one thing that sits across all of our customers is that they really care normally and they they want they want to provide a great service that most of them come to me and their frustration is they're over delivering and not being paid for it.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

I I also think th there's there's got to be an element of an an interest in people and actually why people do what they do and and human behaviour, and I've said it a few times, and maybe it's because it's top of mind because part of the path of getting better and better at this and um the people that you know I work with mostly get very, very good at it because they're interested in in understanding people, not just you know, candidates and why they do what they do and working out, you know, if some if what somebody's presenting in an interview is actually who they are and how they're likely to perform in a position. Um, but also like the clients that they're working with and the teams that their clients have with them and the dynamics of the board that they're you know coordinating. coordinating the search project with and I think it massively helps to actually

The Cost Of Each Path

SPEAKER_02 22:05

enjoy understanding that because I see a lot of people that get frustrated you know in in in agency recruitment tend to kind of fall into two categories either they're they get frustrated because they want to do a really good job but they can't because you know X, Y, and Z's happening and this person isn't doing this and this person isn't doing this and so I was made I was I was I was a I was a KPI culture basket I was like what why do I need to send 25 CVs to get five interviews which doesn't make sense. Yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly but there's there's also others that don't care they just don't care about that really at all it isn't really it they'd rather just send the 25 CVs and hope you know hope something sticks and so I think that's normally quite a good indicator for me as to you know if if you if you're thinking which way to go or what's going to suit you best we all you know we all know that when we do things that we love we we we're better at it. And so leaning into what you like the most would be my advice. That would be I I see people that are pushing themselves to do things that they don't really like doing just getting more and more unhappy and um so if you like AI and you like tech and you like volume and you know you like efficiency in terms of you know finding out the latest tool or whatever that's going to do it better, well yes there's a place for that in executive search definitely but as a layer on the most important piece which is human human touch that can't be a place yeah I can't be that and that's still I can't get away from it I can't get away from the fact that I think if you can build this AI stack if you can buy this AI product that allows you to do this job really easily to find candidates really quickly so can your customers Yeah I mean the the facts at the at the moment though is that you can't like um I saw a post today to say that a year ago Perplexity the CEO of Perplexity said that in a year basically there you know AI would replace recruiters and then underneath it it's got did you see it this morning? No no no underneath it it's got um like three or four ads on Perplexity's um website for senior experienced recruiters they're trying to hire for perplexity this is like a year later so you know they can't even um it's not even doing it for themselves. If they can't even replace their own recruiters then they're not fucking replacing other people's recruiters and again I go back I go back to that consultant piece.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

You know, because anything that's really important to me I don't stick. Right and it it you know think of anything that's important. Think about those health checks you know think about popping in your symptoms on chat GPT or Claude you still then go to see the doctor you know you ask him to review you ask it to review a legal document but then you're still going to go and pay the lawyer for you so it was the senior technical recruiters that they they were hiring for interestingly so that's the stuff that you know people uh people can't do.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

So I think that's what I see and that would be what I would be being extremely mindful of in terms of what to do over the next 12 months to not just keep your place but become even better and stand out at what you're doing. That's what I would be doing.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Yeah I couldn't agree more couldn't agree more. Yeah and there's so much that AI can do that just allows you to do more of the stuff that you're gonna you know it is an either or it isn't like you've got to use anything AI or no AI. It's like actually there's so much that we can use AI phone on to just allow you to do the thing that moves the needle.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

And typically engaging spending time with customers adding value yeah all all the all the I was gonna say all the all the all the stuff about all the stuff in executive search that wasn't fulfilling well for me like the reporting the data analytics you know the note taking all that stuff has gone now yeah well it's a shame for me because I love admin.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

I love all that admin y stuff not yeah exactly oh my god yeah that is um the exact opposite of you and I think it feels it feels crazy doesn't it again how quickly these things are moving because you know we we go to Australia at the end of the month and we'll be doing loads of meetings while we're there and it feels like it was only a year ago or so that we were there last doing the same thing spending our entire evenings sitting in a bar writing our notes writing all the notes up and like why why on earth would we do that?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

We don't need to write notes as AI will do that for us. No?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I have not written written notes for ages. So so yeah I agree with you it isn't like one or the other um and I'm sure you know these big and it'd be interesting to get somebody on to talk about it these big solutions that are you know tech heavy

Using AI Without Losing The Human Edge

SPEAKER_02 27:55

and process heavy and outsource require a consultant to sell them.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah yeah yeah yeah it's almost uh it it's not a do you want to use AI or not for me it's a do you want to be high volume low touch or high touch low volume. Yeah yeah it's nice that that's the question. Nice and if it's the latter if it's high touch low volume then you need to make sure you're getting paid to all of the work easier then it needs to be retained yeah totally yeah totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Good well I'm glad that I'm glad that we've um put that one to death yeah good too good too we're back on the horse I know yeah I know um I'm excited to find out where we're going next um our wonderful marketing manager Kirsty has got a plan for this season's uh podcast and our episodes so we've got some very exciting things coming up and we're looking forward to having you along for the ride um reach out to us tell us about stuff that you want us to cover ask questions um and as always Jordan and I we're all over LinkedIn so you reach out to us directly and drop us a message we're always wanting to hear your views and get involved in conversations absolutely see you next time see you next time thanks Lou well that's another episode of Retrain Search the podcast in the bag thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearch.com and don't be shy connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi we don't bite unless you're a Shrek firm that is we want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community if you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities well we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently and we have our search mastery program that's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap membership to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access just talk to us okay thanks for listening we'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search