Welcome To Retained Search

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Retained Search, the podcast, where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Welcome to the show. I say welcome to the show, but you're never really not in our show because you're part of our world and our universe. So I love that. Thank you very much for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Hey, thanks for having me. It's always uh great being on these conversations. So uh yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

So there'll be a lot of people that do know you because you're you know famous, but for those listeners that don't know you, give us the headlines. Um, if you will, what does Press and Associates do? And who do you do it for?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Yeah, definitely. So uh I've been running uh the search firm Press and Associates for coming up to eight and a half, nine years now, and we specialise in helping private equity firms build out their value creation teams. Um, so this is at the uh permanent employees for the private equity firms that essentially help them uh translate an investment thesis into a value creation plan and help the portfolio companies get from A to B and have a uh successful exit at the end of the whole period.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Nice. Um, you're really specialist in what you do, and um, for some people that can feel a bit counterintuitive, uh hyper, hyper specializing um in one function specifically with one in within an industry. Could you walk us through how you arrived at that decision? And was that deliberate? Did you start that way or did that kind of niche find you?

Why Hyper Specialization Wins

SPEAKER_00 1:47

So um it's kind of 50-50, I would say. So I've always been specialized throughout my career before uh doing private equity. I was uh exclusively focused on the oil and gas space, uh, within specifically drilling completions. So I always found a lot of value in hyper specializing in a certain function industry and so on. Because I think there's a lot of efficiencies, a lot of streamlining that you can have from that in terms of learning the market, learning the terminology, what's important to the candidates, the clients, but also the relationship building. You're not building relationships from scratch every single time you start a new search, you know who the likely suspects are out there and who's a good point of referral, and so on. So there's huge um efficiencies to being super focused. Uh, but I actually arrived on the private equity sector uh by happenstance, but also um slightly deliberate as well. And uh I landed on that fifth about five years ago, five and a half years ago, in around COVID time. And it was a slow transition from I'd say oil and gas into this space. And I landed on this space because of a few reasons. First of all, there didn't seem like there were many search firms out there that would focus in on this space uh exclusively. A lot of the big firms did kind of cover these types of searches, but they'll usually cover them from a this is our financial services expert, or this is our private equity expert who would do any and all role within financial services or private equity. There wasn't anyone that was exclusively focused on the value creation niche. So I saw that as a huge opportunity, uh, a good uh positioning for uh pitching to clients and uh uh being a true specialist in the area. Um, so not many people were focused in on this area, and then also I was really excited by the um ecosystem, by the people who operate in the space. So there was that genuine interest and curiosity and passion within the space because it's uh a group of people who are super entrepreneurial, super solutions focused. Um, they're usually very successful professionals who have come out of consulting or have been in industry actually operating, or some of them have even started their own businesses and sold them successfully. So selfishly, I found the conversations with these people just super interesting, intriguing. I always enjoyed the personalities that I was talking with. So, from a selfish perspective, that lined up really nicely in that I was enjoying the conversations, I could uh be the dumbest person in the room and just soak up all that knowledge. So um I focused in on uh niche for um a few reasons, those two being two of them, but also I saw it as a very under-service space within private equity and a space that was going to be growing in momentum over the coming years, and it has done over the last five or six years or so, uh, which is really exciting to see kind of my focus uh uh bear fruit in the uh the momentum that's been building. But uh it's a very under-serviced um space where most PE firms have the deals team running the deals and also running the post-acquisition value creation plan. And there weren't too many PE firms that focused in on the uh value creation space and actually partnering with the portfolio companies to help them get to A to B. So I also saw it as uh an area that had a lot of potential, and because of the interest uh in the space, because of the enjoyment of the conversations, uh, I really honed in on that area and uh yeah, absolutely loving it.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Tell

Credibility Building In Private Equity

SPEAKER_01 5:35

me, what like is it actually like though, and what was it like for you? Because I work with a lot, as you know, a lot of uh search firms and recruitment businesses now that would love to break into the PU space like so a lot of people that's the holy grail. Um and they don't understand the kind of relationship architecture, who the stakeholders are, what appeals to them, how to get in the room. How long did it really take to build credibility and what did that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

I think it's still great. Um, so uh I think it's never going to be uh finished in terms of building the trust and building the credibility, but it's uh it's a very slow and steady process. Um I think if I was to go back and do it again, I would have done a lot more research into the ideal client persona and really map out at the very beginning what's important to them, how they operate, and so on. Excuse me, because um, yeah, they are very slow to trust. Um, they have very, very high bar for expectations, they're very time poor. So it was a lot of credibility building, uh, a lot of kind of proving your self-worth and the value you can bring to the table. So um you build up the credibility search by search by doing a good job on each search individually, delivering with good candidates, a good process, uh, a process that's repeatable, robust. Uh, those are really important things for private equity because although they uh buy and sell companies, they are pretty risk-adverse and they would like to be certain in pretty much every single decision they make if they can, which is understandable. Some of their decisions go well, some don't, uh, as is life, but uh they do take a pretty risk-adverse approach to their providers, and that's why a lot of them will default to your Shrek firms and to your PwCs and your McKinsey's and so on, because there's a lot of uh um kind of safe um aspects to having those choices, so you've got to build your credibility up. So it's been five plus years, uh, really kind of uh digging into those uh areas and uh still going, but uh it was a slow burner for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Talking about that then, that risk aversion and process and um what you need to go through. You've

The Reality Of 10 Stage Interviews

SPEAKER_01 7:55

written about PE firms running like six or more rounds of interviews. Like by round six, you said that the process isn't an assessment, it's an election. Like, tell us a bit about that. Like, what is there a cost to that to them? Um your clients of committee-driven hiring, like that must be quite challenging to manage.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Definitely, definitely. And uh I'll say six interviews is probably probably the median. Um, I think uh a lot of processes go 10, 12 stages, depending on the seniority size of the P firm. So there's a lot of uh cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, and uh yeah, it's very difficult to uh get uh everyone bought in 100% um to absolutely everything because you obviously have the technical skill sets, the soft skills, personalities, and so on. People have different priorities as to what's important to them. So it's a very intricate and nuanced um assessment process. And I think the biggest thing around managing those types of processes, um, and you teach us all all the time, is uh kind of having those really thorough kickoff meetings where all key stakeholders are at the first meeting, um, everyone's heard, everyone's aligned on exactly the competencies, the criteria, and so on that uh we're assessing for. But also, I think taking it a step further, mapping out the interview process and going, okay, how many stages do you want? And are those stages actually necessary? What are you going to be assessing for in those uh interviews? Um, what's uh going to be the focus, the questioning, and so on. So uh I think uh it all stems down to running a kind of robust process, uh, but uh it does uh get a little bit uh complex the more people that you add in. So um that's always uh kind of an nth box to uh check throughout. But uh um yeah, it's uh it is it's a it's a fun process because you get to not just kind of go yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, and uh make a decision based on that. You actually get to have more judgment-based conversations and really talk through more of a is this a teachable skill? Is this uh a gap that you can overcome? Um, is this a deal breaker? So uh I really enjoy it because you actually get more into the consultative side of search versus the uh order taker and checkbox uh exercise. So uh it does make things a little bit more difficult, but at the same time, it makes it more interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Yeah, it sounds interesting. One way is one way of describing it, I suppose. You talk about um the spiky operator, right? I love that phrase, like versus the consensus candidate. So it must be quite difficult as a search partner to actually advocate for that kind of candidate when the process is possibly structurally biased against them, especially if they're so risk averse. How how do you how do you do that?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

It's uh it's an interesting one because the private equity ecosystem is full of change, full of uh um difficult decisions, companies being acquired, people investing a lot of money in certain spaces, sometimes kind of cost cutting and headcounts reductions and things like that. So it's an interesting one where you can you can assess against it for sure. Um, is this person um gonna be comfortable in those scenarios? And can they show things in case studies or um specific situational-based uh questioning around talk to me through uh a difficult situation where you uh had an idea and everyone else in the room was against it? How do you build consensus and so on? So there's ways of certainly uh um kind of identifying and assessing those uh competencies, but uh it's difficult to uh kind of have that balance between the uh person who can build that consensus versus who's gonna think uh a little bit outside the box and kind of push the envelope and uh be a little bit uh uh on the controversial side of things. So it's certainly a balance that we continuously look for. I think if you have someone completely on one side or completely on the other side, it's usually pretty risky. You want to have a healthy balance between the two, and that just goes back to the uh the scorecarding and how how you're assessing people, but uh it's definitely an interesting one because the controversial candidates sometimes don't turn up too well to interview processors.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

And

Selling Unconventional Operator Talent

SPEAKER_01 12:38

you have talked about the IBM rule, you know, the safety. Um nobody got fired for hiring the MBB consultant with cetra experience. So, how might you push a client to look beyond that conventional pedigree without losing credibility or putting your own reputation on the line?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

No, definitely. So um I think it's uh an interesting topic because it's private equity is all about pattern recognition. Uh, as mentioned earlier, it's very uh risk adverse. So if you see someone who's gone to a top school, got an MBA, and then joined McKinsey or Goldman Sachs or whoever it may be, then spent time in a replicio company, there's a lot of safety, a lot of checking boxes there that go, okay, this person must be uh uh pretty decent. Uh, but uh I always think back to uh my wife's uh uh accountant and uh she works with uh a big four company, and uh those guys hire so many people, and not everyone can be a superstar. So I always kind of think back to that sort of analogy and go, great, they've got the baseline boxes checked, but that's just a pattern recognition. We still need to assess the technical skills, we need to assess the competencies and so on. And the question that we always ask in each kickoff is if this person has all the competencies, the technical skills, and so on, and they check all our boxes and meet the criteria. If their resume looks a little bit unconventional, do you still want to see those profiles? And the resounding answer is yes. Um, they want to see people who can do the role. So it's just a bit of that uh expectation setting at the beginning uh that allows you to bring in left field candidates, so to speak, throughout the process. And a lot of the best hires that we've uh helped our clients make, um, their resumes don't look like traditional private equity people. They've sometimes run their own businesses and sold them off and sometimes worked for startups in very kind of nuanced niche areas that no one's ever heard of, but they've learned the skills and uh they've gone through kind of their war stories and they've had their uh battle scars and they've learned great things that apply to these new uh opportunities. So um it's kind of less um putting yourself in a box and saying, hey, they must come from these companies, more of these are the competences in the skill set and understanding where to search for them.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Are you enjoying this so far? Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories, and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it, or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff. Interesting.

Tenure, Hold Periods, And Fit

SPEAKER_01 15:46

And they move around, don't they? Like your um your research shows that the median tenure of of a hire in this space is four or just over four years, and 25% are actually gone inside three years. How does that does that change anything in the way that you brief candidates, but also clients in terms of what success looks looks like here and what the ultimate goal is?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, so it's an interesting one because I think in the greater kind of workforce, I think the average tenure at the moment is like a year and a half, two years, or something like that. Um, it's really low in comparison. So the tenure in private equity is actually pretty good. And it usually lines up with um the compensation vehicles. Um, so a lot of uh professionals within private equity will stay for four or five years because that's the whole period of the portfolio company. They see a successful transaction and then they move on to the next one because the new owners want to fit in their own leadership team or whatever it may be. So it usually ties to that. Um I'd say the tenure is an interesting one that I've been looking into more recently because a lot of the time these value creation team uh professionals get hired, it's the deals professionals who are sometimes running those processes in the smaller firms. And what's interesting about deals professionals is they are very loyal to one firm. Um, they usually spend 10, 15, 20 years, if not their full career, with one firm. Um, so it's interesting to um kind of collaborate with that type of professional who um has very strong tenure to talk through portfolio company professionals and value creation professionals who have maybe been a little bit more jumpier from their perspective and actually talking around why it's not necessarily a bad thing and the the variety of experience and so on, and there's always reasons for people to move in around. So it's uh uh another uh I suppose topic to uh manage expectations on, but uh it's uh it's an interesting one. And uh you obviously always want to scrutinize reasons for moving and spot patterns, and hey, that if this person's only ever been at a company for two years consistently, is that a bet that's gonna be worth paying off? Uh, in terms of if this PE firm hires them realistic expectations they're gonna be there for two years and are they gonna get their money's worth? So it's always uh kind of a useful data point, but uh you need to provide the context around it for sure.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Let's

Pricing And Proving Value To PE

SPEAKER_01 18:29

talk commercials briefly without breaking any confidence. Um, how do PE firms buy search services differently to corporates if they do? Like what should a search firm thinking about this market understand about pricing or service provision or partner involvement?

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Um so private equity firms I'd say mainly don't focus on price, they focus on their perceived value. So if the search firm can provide significant value, there's always a price point to justify it. That being said, there are market norms uh in terms of what the regular search firm will charge for a typical search, and those fees, depending on the PE firm, their size and scale, we usually range between say 25, 27.5% on the low end to 33 and a third percent on the higher end, maybe 35. Um, and and it will depend on it's if this is a new PE firm that's raising their first fund and maybe cash flow is a bit tight, or is this a mega fund like a Bladster and Apollo and EQT who have hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars of asset under management, and they really want the safe play, the value play, and they're willing to pay for convenience and uh predictability. So it really does depend on uh whereabouts in the market you're pitching. But uh I'd say the theme across the board is they will focus on value. So when you're pitching for private equity firms, because they're going back to it risk adverse, they're slow to build trust, when you're pitching with them, they want to know that you've done the search a million times before. They want to know that you've done it, you've got references to back up your level of service that you're uh um suggesting that you can provide. Um, and they really want to know that you can hit the ground running, you've got access to the talent, and it's gonna be as close to a guaranteed search as possible. So they would really want to see what your prior track record looks like, the PE firms that you've worked with, your references, your process, um, what the team looks like, and the the background and the credibility and the credentials of your uh uh team members and who's gonna be delivering on it. Um they're also gonna look at your communication style and how you collaborate. Is this gonna be a true partnership, or uh is this gonna be a kind of uh they give you the orders and you take them and go off and execute on them? They really want to understand what the type of the relationship is gonna be like as well. So um those are the kind of key data points that most of our pitchers uh uh touch upon.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Nice.

The Talent War Plus AI Shift

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Um to come back to a bigger picture a little bit, you've highlighted in one of your pieces the exit down breaking and the operator partner talent war intensifying simultaneously. What does that mean for the next 12 to 18 months in the space that you're in?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Um, so I think there's going to be a huge um kind of growing demand for private equity operating partners. Um, we've already seen it over the last 12 or 18 months or so. Uh as mentioned, I've been in the space for five, five and a half years now. And I think there's a variety of different situations. I think, first of all, the hold periods of the portfolio companies are getting longer and longer. So essentially, this means that the private equity firms own them for a longer period of time. And what they want to do is make as much money as possible. So the value creation team are front and center to that. They really take ownership of the whole period and make sure that they're maximizing value through eBay of growth so that when they get to the end point of the whole period, they're going to sell them for as much money as possible, the best multiples, etc. So if the whole period is extending, they've got more time to have impact. So I think that's one key area that's uh really interesting. Uh, the second area is that I think I saw a stat a few months ago that there are now more PE funds in the US than there are McDonald's. So it was a crazy set. I think someone from KKR or Blackstone said it, but such a saturated market, so many PE firms raising funds, and the LPs, the limited partners who provide those funds to the PE firms are going, hey, how are you going to differentiate yourself? How why are we going to give you hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars? And one key way that they're doing that is through building out value creation teams, building out uh operating partners and professionals who have a specific expertise related to their investment thesis that they can go, hey, this person has provided this much value across our portfolio over this many years. Here's the return on investments and the internal rate of return or the multiples on investing capital, whatever metric they're touching upon. So a lot of LPs are providing downward pressure on the private equity firms to build out these capabilities and to differentiate themselves. Um, so that's another key area. I think that's gonna increase the volume of hiring in the space. And then lastly, um AI and uh AI transformation. I think that's huge. What people have done previously may or may not work for the future, but uh there definitely needs to be some sort of uh um adapting and uh transforming within the value creation team to operate in this new world, which uh has AI and Chat GPT and all that good stuff really ingrained into it. It's disrupting a number of industries, it's also providing efficiencies and uh unlocking a lot of value in various different industries. So if you've got a value creation team that uh traditionally isn't tech enabled and isn't using artificial intelligence, and now you've had this huge wave of AI come into the uh into the space, you really need people who can understand that um space, who can apply the technologies appropriately, but still understand it in the context of private equity and the metrics that are important. So that's also shifting the hiring types of profiles that are going to be successful and so on. So I think there's a lot of uh fluctuation in the space, but uh it's all a net positive in terms of the headcount that's growing and the momentum within the sector. So uh I think there's gonna be a huge uh growth in this function specifically over the next, I'll say, five plus years.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Interesting. P has a data engineering problem, not a data science problem. Was a very sharp line in one of the recent posts. So, what other category-led misconceptions do you think PE firms are making about the operating talent that they need?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

So I think uh because of the capabilities of artificial intelligence and what Claude and the other platforms can do, it's really easy to jump to the sexy stuff and go, oh, look at this AI, look what it can do. It can build out these fancy dashboards, etc. And it looks really impressive, but uh the underlying factor is that it pulls upon the data that you're giving it to it. So I'm not a kind of technology wizard myself. Uh, I don't have a computer science degree, but it essentially how I understand how I break it down, artificial intelligence is kind of the last layer to apply. You need all the foundational uh underpinnings to really unlock the full potential of AI. Because if you feed it bad data, it's gonna produce bad answers. And I think there was uh an article maybe a year ago where it was uh ChatGPT is getting dumber because people are approving the wrong answers to the questions. And this is very simple. But if enough people give a thumbs up for two plus two equals three, chat GPT is gonna start thinking about two plus two equals three. So there was a funny article on that a while back. But uh essentially the data engineering is all the underpinning and foundational aspects to what the data science, data analytics, and the AI gets built on top of. So if you've got um bad data at the foundation, the pipelines, the platforms, the data lakes, and so on, where all the uh information is being hosted, if it's not accessible, if it's not organized appropriately, if it's not well governed and compliant, your AI is gonna be shit out of luck. I mean, it's not gonna be able to pull the right information, it's gonna hallucinate where it can't find that information, provide you with fake hypotheses and theories and so on. So that data engineering piece is absolutely um integral to allow the AI to be uh effective on top.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Very interesting.

Who Should Not Chase PE Work

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Um, so search firm owners that are listening to this that attempted to chase uh PA work, what's the honest advice? Who should, who should, and who absolutely should not?

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yeah, I would say the people who should focus on private equity are the people who are continuously pushing themselves to learn, develop, um, raise the bar on quality and the value that they're providing. Um, I don't think anyone who's wants to coast or is uh uh wanting to do the bare minimum or anything like that. Uh, I don't think any of those professionals would be well suited to private equity because these guys are just time poor, they need the highest quality output. Also, these guys are all coming from the top schools, the top companies, like they're expecting top quality results as the lowest bar. So um, if you don't want to kind of continuously develop and learn and improve yourself, then I think it'll be a tough uh space to get involved with. I also think that if you are running a firm that lives and dies month to month and it's very KPI focused, it's very, hey, we want to close deals this month and we'll do anything and everything we can to close those deals. I think that doesn't bode well in private equity because they are very relationship-driven, very low to trust. If they feel like you're trying to kind of push them or uh kind of sell to them or anything like that, they usually back away a little bit and go, hold on a second, there must be a reason behind this. The value isn't there for me, or the price point isn't right, or whatever it may be, or these guys may be trying to like pull the wood over my eyes. So I feel like uh if you're in it for short-term wins and uh are living kind of month by month and so on, I don't think that would be conducive to the sector because it takes so I think when I first got into the private equity space, I think I went six, seven months without bringing in a fee while I was building these relationships up and kind of understanding the market. So uh unless you're willing to be patient, put in the time, ensure you're consistently high value and you're being authentic and truthful and uh genuine, I think it's uh tough to be successful in the space.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Such good fast.

One Fix For PE Hiring

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Paul, if you could change one thing about how PE firms hire operating leaders tomorrow, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

That's a good question. Um I think we did a research piece recently where a lot of PE firms do default to um the logos and hey, we want someone from a a McKinsey, a Bain, a BCG, or hey, we want someone from this background. Um, a lot of them don't, and a lot of them are uh kind of open to being creative and going for the unconventional profiles. Uh, but I think uh more of an appetite to be creative in what the ideal candidate profile looks like will be a huge lift for the industry because the demand for these people is only increasing, and there's only so many people who check the unicorn boxes that every PE firm wants, and it's very difficult once that talent pool runs out to then go and find other people that satisfy those check boxes just because they don't exist. So I think the openness to be creative around the um search criteria, what a profile looks like, um, that side of things, I think that would be something that's evolving now and uh gaining a little bit more traction. But if I could kind of click my fingers and uh everyone would operate in this way, I think uh that that would be uh certainly a uh a huge uh kind of uplift to hiring. And uh it would also allow a lot of people who may not have the traditional background to break into private equity, which would be awesome to see kind of a lot of people who may not have that uh kind of MBB and that MBA and all the kind of uh expensive education and so on that uh uh traditionally PE firms uh leaned into, it will also open it up to uh kind of all walks of life. So that would be uh really exciting to see.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Nice. Final question, Paul, before I let you get back to the whole world of PE. What's the belief that you held strongly five years ago about search or private equity hiring that you've since changed your mind on?

SPEAKER_00 32:58

That's an interesting one. I would say I I came from a contingent background and I always wanted to get into the retained search world, and being completely uh transparent when I looked at kind of the bigger firms who did retain search, I hold I like heard all sorts of stories around um kind of them taking six months, twelve months, etc. to do searches, um, kind of taking four weeks to produce research and so on. And the contingent world is very different. It's hey, you take a job order and you have candidates to them by the end of the day, um, and it's very kind of fastest finger first. Um so I always saw the big search firms as being a little bit say lazy, but like I just didn't understand how it took them so long to do certain things. And since doing the retrain course and since uh operating in the space, there's a lot of work that goes into a retained search, and it does take time. Obviously, technology and AI is making it quicker and more accurate, but it is a very high-skilled, uh intricate process, and it's a very sought-after and kind of valuable um service to provide. I mean, talent is the biggest differentiator in the market, and it will be forever until robots take over or whatever. Um, so I I think it's uh something to invest in, I think it's uh a space that uh is right for disruption. I mean, things can get faster, things will be high quality. I think with AI you can do all your market mapping and all that side of things, but uh yeah, at the outset, I was thought about the big search firms is like, how do they take this long to do this work? And after learning about it, the nuances and so on that go into a search and the the rigorous and robust process, there's a lot of work that goes into it. It's uh yeah, it's a real white glove service, and uh that just completely changed my perspective around it and actually made me even more excited about getting into the space.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Thank

Wrap Up And How To Get Involved

SPEAKER_01 35:14

you so much for for sharing your wisdom so generously and your experiences. Um, we really appreciate you. You're a part of our world. We'll see you again on the podcast very soon, I hope.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Definitely. Well, thank you for having me, Bill. It's always great seeing you.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Well, that's another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies, and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedseech.com. And don't be shy, connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi. We don't bite, unless you're a track firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently. And we have our Search Mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search the Podcast.