Welcome And Set The Stakes

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Retained Search, the podcast, where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Soma, I am so looking forward to speaking to you. I've deliberately not said anything prior to hitting record or asked you anything at all. Yes, nothing. Because I want everyone to hear everything, every single thing of what you've got to say. Um and here's why. Um I know that our team reached out to ask you if you would um be able to join our podcast. And the reason that I was so keen to do that was we were on a panel recently together, uh, which you'll remember it was with uh recruit CRM for those of you that want to go back and have a listen to it. And immediately before the panel, I got a message from one of my favourite people in the world to say that you are amazing. And I thought, great, amazing! And I've been on a panel with people that are amazing. So I already knew that I was excited about your story or whatever you've got to say. And then on that panel, you shared some really good stuff, but you you told us a story. You told us a story, and it grabbed me so much and spoke to me so much that I really wanted to start by asking you if you would possibly be able to share that story with our audience. And to give some context before you do that, we the subject of the panel was moving customers from a transactional supplier-based relationship, master slave type relationship, into a trusted advisor status. That was the subject, wasn't it, of our panel discussion? And there was a specific question, and I forget the question, but it was around um what's the difference? What is the real difference when you're performing services, when you're executing, when you're working with what is the difference between those two things? So, is that enough context for you to be able to share the story that you shared?

The Moment She Found Her Voice

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, do you think? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I'm so happy that someone behind the scenes is telling you or giving compliments about me to you. So thank you. That warms my heart. It's nice to hear.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Good, good.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

So uh yeah, and what a great panel. Everyone on the panel was fantastic and so much good energy, and we could talk all day about these topics. And yeah, the story I shared um is just one of those stories that when you have to think about was there a point in your career when everything just kind of clicked and you found your voice, you found your authority, you weren't afraid to share news, even if it's not good news with clients directly, you know, and because I I grew up in contingency just for context for about six years, and then I went to retained in 08, which was an interesting time. But um, but it was such a mindset shift, and then even within retained itself, going from a junior person to a person who knew what they were doing, but couldn't yet articulate that to a client directly without going through someone, you know. So I was that behind-the-scenes person just like whispering in my partner's ears, saying, say this thing to the client.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

This is what you know, it's just I was I had no voice to the client, like I did not exist, you know, for many years. And that was fine with me, no pressure, you know. Fine with me.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

I will find candidates all day. Um, but yeah, when I was running a big account, or at least a big search that was yet to become a big account, and this search went on for many, many months. It was a tough role, they required relocation. It was a very high bar. This client not only wanted all the skills, but a great collaborative leader and just all the things. The bar was high. And we found a candidate. Client loved this candidate. We were moving to offer. We know other candidates, like everyone else was a no. And we moved to offer, we're about to make an offer, and the candidate suddenly had a shift in personality, and and I noticed it, and then I had asked my internal recruiter partner on the client side. I'm like, hey, have you noticed that now that we're talking about compensation and getting really nitty-gritty with unvested equity and all the complications around that, that this person is becoming a little bit condescending, and and this was a big search, was it? It was a big search. What sort of salary level, fee level are we talking? Just for compensation. Seven seven-figure salary, you know, it was a big search, you know. So you get all kinds of personalities when you're dealing with big people in technology, and that's main my main world is senior level tech execs within financial services. So big search. And at this point, there was other options of candidates. Yeah, no other candidates. We we everyone was a no. Lots of interest in the role. Yeah, everyone was a no. Yeah, and we had so much pressure to fill this role. I mean, you're you're meeting with some senior people that need this role filled. And like, thank goodness they all love this candidate. And then this candidate, yeah. So I decided to ask the internal recruiter if if they because because they were very hands-on too. We had a really great relationship with who does what when, just me and the internal recruiter. You know, they would prep the candidate. I I was a, you know, I can be an ear, I can prep on my side too, but they knew all this. So anyway, so they had a relationship with them also. Um, and so I was curious if they were getting this. And they're like, you know what? I'm so glad you mentioned this because yes, I'm getting this too. And they asked me what we should do. And I thought about it. And they said, you know what? I'm gonna have a meeting. Let's let's not decide right now. Let's have hiring. So they threw this thing on my calendar. I remember the next age showed up on my calendar, seven executives of this company and me. I was like, oh god, uh, what am I gonna say? And they said to me, I told them what happened, and they said, What should we do? And I said, Don't don't make the offer. And I was like heart pounding because I think honestly, prior me would have just said, you know what? I'm sure it'll be fine. Like, let's just make the this is the only candidate we have. The role's been open for months and months and months, they're great. You all love this person, like you have vetted them for like probably, I'm sure, 14 hours, you know. And who am I to pull this thing at this point in time? But in my heart, I knew if they were treating me this way, they were gonna show up and treat their team this way. And this is not just a role you manage up and manage across, you have to manage down. And sometimes I truly believe being the recruiter, being female, looking kind of young, I think that I can be a good test. You know, it's how it's like you go to a restaurant with someone, how do they treat the host, you know, hostess kind of thing? And I feel like people show their true colors between all the interviews, the texts I get, the calls I get, the emails I get, the things people say off the cuff. And I'm like, hmm, I'm paying attention to all that kind of stuff. But it's like, do you action it? Do you say anything? Do you bring it up to the client? And Junior and me would be like, you know what, just get this, get this done, you know, like just get this off your plate. But more because I think that's what we're trained with, you know. Definitely, yeah, we are revenue.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Just like the deal over the line, do right, get it done, whatever it takes.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Like, why would you why would you catapult this thing for like your own idea is to torpedo this thing?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah, yeah. And and I said, Don't make the offer, you know, and and and they respected my choice. Everyone was very upset, of course. We had no other candidates, you know, they were not happy, and um yeah, and so we didn't, and it was horrible. But we worked our tails off, and long story short, we found an awesome placement who honestly was even better than the first one. Oh and and they joined, they thrived, they got promoted, they've led tens of thousands of people, like they were at least, you know, multiple thousands of people at this company, and they went on like yeah, great, great hire. And that was the moment where all of a sudden that client just I and my my team and I became their go-to uh recruiters, you know. They knew we had their back, they knew that we were in it for the long term. It wasn't just about closing a placement, it wasn't just about getting this off our plate and moving on and crossing our fingers and hoping it would all work. It was like, you know what? I want to raise this thing. And I just, I just I never would have done that. And it's just it just completely changed when I had my own voice with my clients and just I think we're trained like keep everyone happy, make everyone happy. It could be a simple thing of like, you know what, the candidate's interested in your job when you know they're not, or it's saying, we have three more people on our pipeline when you don't, you know, like all these kinds of things. But it's like keep the client happy, just make them happy. I'm like, why are we doing this stuff? You know, why and now we're all behind. Now we're always behind. The stress is crazy, the root canals are real, like what is happening? Yeah, and it's just pure transparency with a solution, you know, not just like here's bad news, everyone. But but but being transparent, having their back, feeling like you work there, you know, like would you want to work with this person? But truly feeling it and voicing it, and and yeah, it's unbelievable. And so I've just abided by that for now. Yeah, it's been a long time, but it's been awesome. So I'll stop there.

Retained Versus Contingent Mindset Shift

SPEAKER_03 10:09

What a story! I love it so much. I must have told it about 10 times since we did the panel like last week. Yeah, because it's such a good example of what changes when you become a trusted advisor and when you are most interested in reaching the best possible result, not just trying to get a deal over the line. It's such a good example of the differences in the motivation of a of a decent search consultant versus the motivation of a contingent recruiter whose entire fee depends on getting that that person over the line. Like it's part of it is that I agree with you in that we grow in confidence of our gut feel, our intuition, those things that happen between the the you know, the interviews and the way they uh show up in between those lines, really. And a part of it is us getting older and wiser, and you know, learning that if we don't just have a gut, then things tend to go wrong. Um, but a big part of it is the shift in what we're actually being paid to do when we're a search consultant, and the the revenue, the I should say, commercial model of a retained search is much more supportive of this relationship and enables us to have that kind of relationship where we aren't just only interested in getting a candidate over the line, and we are being paid to go through that process with them of arriving at the best possible outcome, be that whatever that might be, you know. And when when I speak to lots and lots of people and ask them what they think the difference is between retained and contingent, oh my god, this is so why I really wanted to um you know have this conversation with you because not many contingent recruiters actually understand that there is a difference, and it's not just well, it's paid in in thirds, that's the stock answer, or there isn't really a difference, you know. So I'm really interested to find out a bit more about your journey here because it's been that's a big step to go from uh you know contingent recruiter into what sounds like a pure play search firm. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit more about what the differences have been for you between that early part of your journey and the way you used to work and what changed and how that's evolved over time?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yeah. And I do think even in contingent, I approached contingent with a long-term mindset. I even I remember clients back then just saying, Oh wow, that little write-up email about why you sent this person, even though they didn't look good on paper, was super helpful. I'm like, Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't I tell you, like, I recognize they don't have this thing, but they're good at this thing. And you know, so I think um I think it was always probably in me to think why people fit versus just keyword matching and that kind of thing. But I think the big difference along with what we just shared about having their back and being on the same team. You know, like it I I see, I I listen to a lot of podcasts, I listen to your podcast, I listen to all these other podcasts too, and then I have to balance it out with like other sorts of podcasts, so it's not all recruiting, and my my son will uh he's four and I can't listen to that stuff in the car, and then it's just you know, Daniel Tiger songs and who knows what else. So my Spotify raft is embarrassing, but anyway. Um But I think that it's not just about in contingent, you're you're rallying around a candidate and using them as a marketing tool to open a door to a client and then hoping that even if that person isn't the placement, you can turn that client into a placement somehow. And it's just it's such a mindset shift. I remember in the beginning when I switched from contingent to retained, it was a few things, but the first one was we had to fill the role. And I know you've posted about this lately. You're like, nah, so we can talk about that too. But I feel like I have to fill the role, especially because I'm on my own. They are taking a chance on me. Like I better fill this role. I promise them like the world, and I will work my tail off until this role is filled. And I want more business. Like I just I yeah, if it takes me four months to get an SOW with a huge public company, I'm gonna fill the role, you know.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

So I don't think anybody takes anything on without that intention. Like, absolutely probably should caveat the fact that, you know, we can't force them to make a hire with the fact that we really want them to make a higher.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yes, yes, no, and I know what you're you're what you're saying on your your content lately, and it is the process and you're covering the market. And but that alone, like it took me three months to understand that alone of not just running into like physically my boss's office with a resume, like this person's great. And it's like, are are they one of the top five in the world for this job? I'm like, I who knows? Like, that's I've no idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

How would you know that? They're great. Let's send them. It's like, no, no, no. We don't just send them in. Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

They're great. Look at them. And and that just and then I just was asking my boss and other people, I'm like, how do I measure success here? Because in contingent, they would, and this is like back in the day, I started in 02. So, like, they would no LinkedIn really, but they would print the numbers every day in the kitchen. They would print how many candidates went on interviews, like for the month for the team for every every individual, like how many candidates want to interview that month, how many times we visited clients that month, how many times the clients came into our office that month, how many placements we made that month. Every morning they would print it all the whole company, the whole nation. And so you could see how you were doing, and you could also fear for your job, you know, but um, because that was obviously, you know, the culture in contingent. I think at most places is kind of crazy like that. But um, it wasn't about I could play to any contest they had in contingent. This month we're celebrating how many interviews you get. I'm like, if you want me to, but like, why would I send unqualified people to clients? But I can win the contest. Like, it just didn't make sense sometimes, you know? And so, like, it's just some of these incentives, but you know, so I I I figured out that game and how to play it really, really well. And and then my clients were just like, they were great because they knew I like I could, I could, I they I had their back and they had mine, and they would teach me technology. That was the other cool thing. Um, I would just be like, I really don't understand what you mean by this is back then like you know, these J2E people, and they don't use EJBs right and this and that. And they were like, let me explain it to you so you can like qualify people. I'm like, oh, thank God. Like, thank you for telling me about technology. So I just learned all this stuff over time. And then I went to CIO CTO land, and it was not about the numbers in the kitchen, and it wasn't about how many interviews can you get this month because there's the equation to get a placement, you know, and it was we have to fill this role and we have to know these are the top five people in the world, and we're gonna talk to the client every week or two about what we're doing. It took me a long time to just understand the process and what we're trying to get and what we're presenting to clients. And I didn't, like I said in the beginning, I didn't actually talk to the client for a long time. And because I was nervous about it. I was like, I don't know, what am I gonna say?

SPEAKER_03 17:45

And what tell us a bit about that? You've met you've referenced that um before as well, that you were kind of whispering in to somebody else's ear.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

I was all the time.

Stop Explaining Process Start With Values

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Tell us about that, why, what happens and why? You know, I think for me, I'm a very detail-oriented person. I am an execution, I'm a doer. Like I love doing the work, I love recruiting. I don't like talking about recruiting. I don't want to go to wine with clients and talk about how great I am at recruiting, and I don't even know what to talk about. And so I'm very detailed, and I find that I've learned over time that not every client wants to hear all the details, you know? Like, think about a candidate. You interview a candidate and they go on for 20 minutes, but all this detail are like, oh no, like stop. Like, that's not what I wanted to hear. I needed the 30 seconds on why you're great for this right now at this moment in time. You know, I don't need like, oh no, I don't answer that. Let me go all the way back to 1986 where we did this thing, like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Come back, come back. And so, and I'm not trying to do myself a disservice, but I think um I wasn't yet eloquent in getting to the punchline first, in not talking too much, in listening, in not overselling, you know, you know, in um, and also not underselling. I'm just so honest to a fault sometimes that I get in trouble for that too. Like, why are you presenting a candidate that you don't believe in? I'm like, well, maybe I shouldn't have put them on the report then, you know. So um, you know, just kind of taking ownership of like how to speak in the right order, eloquently. And it's not as hard as it sounds. I just had to, I what I had to learn, honestly, is just trust myself and be myself, and I'm fine, and just not overthinking so much and not try to be all these other people, right? That are so like they all have their own style, and that's okay, you know, because I finally got to the point later where you know, clients would want to give me a new search at the same company, but with a different hiring manager. So the the TA leader or whoever I was working with would say, Hey, I want to introduce you to this other person because you executed that so well. Um, and can it just be you? Like, we don't need a sale or anything, we just need like oh I love that. How and I was like, Okay, cool. If I can just be me and just be myself. Um but I'll tell you, like, I even now, like the market's been interesting to say the least, you know, and like post-COVID, it was so busy. And and also, you know, I had I had a baby in 2022. That was interesting timing. And then um, you know, and then the market got a little funky last year and it's coming back a bit, but it's still in waves. And I I had a lot of in I I still do have a lot of inbound work, and that's mainly it's mainly a lot of like ex-candidates that have taken jobs and they're an advocate, or TA leaders that have switched companies and they're advocate, but it's inbound. And and I'm up against Shrek firms. I'm usually up against Shrek because I'm at these big public companies, you know. And when I lost a couple pitches to Shrek firms, I ran my pitch deck by some of my this is what I always do. I I ask my favorite C level or VP level executives in my network. I'm like, hey, can you look at this deck and tell me what you think? Because like, whoo-wee, it is not landing. And they're like, This is terrible. I'm like, thank you. Okay, let's, and like they will go on Canva with me and like help. It's oh I love that. No, it's amazing. Like, I love my network. Like, that's I'd rather do that. Like, yeah, so I just build like the book, this is with my network, everything's with my network. And so um, this one candidate or you know, CIO is not a like past candidate, CIO, big company. He's like, no one cares how the sausage is made. And I'm like, why? They should. I am so good about it about how the sausage is made. Like I love talking about how I find candidates, how I interview candidates, how I do all these things, and I can go on and on about how great I am at recruiting and look at all my LinkedIn recommendations from clients and da-da-da. No one cares.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Are you enjoying this so far? Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the Stories and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it, or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff.

Rigorous Assessment And Candidate Care

SPEAKER_00 22:14

And so I'll tell you, and I guess maybe I'm giving away a secret on the podcast, but no big deal. Um, I it took me four months of like that feedback with people in a year ago, not even like 2025. I've been doing this for a long time, to really crystallize this messaging to win in a space where maybe I don't have all of the advocacy. I have like one person, but then everyone else has to buy in. And all I say now is I start the conversation with saying, look, I've been recruiting for you know 20 plus years. I decided to go off on my own right before COVID for a million reasons. But I can tell you the main reason is at the big search firms, there's this tension between revenue and doing the right thing. And I will never compromise on my values. And then, like, and then the conversation just goes into whatever topic I know, right? You're I love that you're covering. No, it took me four months to get the two-sentence thing. Like, seriously. Like, I went from how the sausage is made to that, to my why. That's amazing. And I'm telling you, and then and then the other side is like, yeah, you know, and and no knock on big search firms. I have friends at big search firms, it comes down to the consultant. But in my land, I am up, I am pitching against big search firms. And so if I can start the conversation about like the story I shared, right? With with those stories and those sorts, and people just want you to have their back, you know, they want you to be flexible. They they want you to say, hey, look, I know you love this candidate, but their compensation is too high. You know what? They said they were flexible and they're not anymore. And I want you to know that now versus two months from now when we put all our eggs in this basket and also we like change the stakeholder's view on what great looks like because now you're gonna meet this person and everyone's like, oh, we like that person. Of course you do. You can't afford that person, you know. So do you want me to pull them or it's up to you? Just want to provide the information. I the other thing I say is my role as a recruiter is to set expectations and prevent surprises. And whatever you do with that is up to you. But I will always prevent surprises, I will always set expectations. Whatever I feel or think, I will let you know and you can decide what to do. But you always know, you know, it's your choice. You can go ahead with this candidate, but they I don't want them to start and quit. I don't want them to get an offer and turn it down. These are risks, we're weighing risk, right? So it's a risk, it's up to you. And so, like, that's such a different conversation than here's how I map the market. Here's how because I do all that stuff. I love recruiting. I I love I wrote a whole book about all this stuff. Like, I I could write a book about how to be a recruiter, sourcing, all this stuff, you know. But did you write a book? I did. Let me let me go grab it.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

What's the book called? Yeah, go get it.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

So um, yeah, it's called Search in Plain Sights.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Sell it in plain sights.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, say my hat play. That's that's I'm gonna get it. You should and if you want to hear me talk for seven hours, you can get it on Audible.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

It was so hard to record. You have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Ugh. If anyone has to ever write a book or record a book, oh my goodness, I have so much advice. But like you can't move your head, you have to be five inches from the mic for for the whole.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

It takes like two hours a chapter because you will mess up and you can't breathe funny, but anyway, you know, or drink coffee, or you know, there's all these things.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah, uh you're like, that's a run-on. Where am I gonna breathe?

SPEAKER_03 25:35

But um Yeah, I love that. I've heard that before when a client has said that to me, I don't want to know how the sausage is made. And I and I like it, right? And I like um I love what you're opening with, and I love how you've distilled that down into and how meaningful it was. Um, and it aligns so much with well, everything that we um live and breathe in our world, as you probably know if you've listened to our you know, our podcast and got to know with us us too. I think the challenge that I have faced with that in the past is that it's good with with firms that are used to using executive search, they know they absolutely know how the sausage is made because they ram it down their throats, don't they? All the bloody time, like what they're doing, how they're doing it, why it's so great, how it's better than everybody else. And my god, pages and pages and pages and pages of the damn stuff. I totally get that. Where I found I struggled without giving the detail was converting contingent work to retained because they were like, Well, what's the difference? That just sounds like what my contingent recruiter's doing. If what all we're saying is we're gonna be ethical and we're gonna be moral and we're gonna find the best candidates and we're gonna fill the role. That's what every contingent recruiter says. So that was when I kind of had to like no, no, no, it's different, you know. Let me show you, like it is different, you know. And that's when I really had to I had to lay out how the sausage is made. And I think the other the other piece that I've struggled with is when I've been teaching people how to move, you know, how to go on this journey. Like you've learned this journey by by by by learning how to make the bloody sausages. You know it's different because you've been running into someone's office going, I've got a great candidate, let's send them, and they're like, No, that's not what we do. Sorry. Go back and make sure that that is the best of the best five people in the world. Um, and so unless you've been through that, you don't you know you're you're at the stage now where you can distill it down to that because you you've you've got all the ingredients, you have you've made that recipe a thousand times before. And if anyone does say, actually, how is the sausage made? you're like bang bang bang bang bang bang bang, and you know exactly how to answer that question and what you're doing, and then how to execute it, of course. So it's great that you've you've got there, and I love what you've gone with in terms of ethics and sorry, the sun, it's like coming in. I know I see your fish. I'm not complaining about the sun, but um, we don't see it very often. It was funny, I was on the tennis court the other day, and uh I I like went to get a ball and I was like, no, I nearly tripped over something, and it was the shadow of the floodlight on the court. It's been that long since we've seen the sun. I'm not I didn't even know what a shadow was.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

I'm in Texas, so it's uh yeah, it's sunny all the sun.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

I lived in Texas, I used to live in Texas. Um, so can you tell us well, what do you what what would you share? What do you think um people who are going on this journey, and that tends to be our audience, should know about that journey, about moving from a contingent working model into a retained, a proper retained model.

Shortlists That Fail And Iteration

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Yeah. I mean there's a lot of different angles to think about that. Um I I definitely would I think there's the how do I explain it to client side, which you were just talking about, but then also the actual work. You know, I think just feeling like you have to really ramp up your assessments, like they better be good. It's it's the the the level of questions, the I think a lot of the reasons why candidates I didn't place, but I I went through they maybe they got through four rounds, you know. So we got to know each other well, and then they land and then they call me to fill their roles under them because they appreciated the rigor of the interview process and the transparency throughout the interview process that I give to them. And so I will always tell candidates how many other candidates are in process, where I don't always say if they're number one or number two or that kind of thing, but I'll always give them an indication of how much emotional investment they should put in this thing. And and I think they really appreciate that because also I'm asking them for the same back. Like I want to know how much commitment that they're giving to this, you know. So I think I think there's just like a way over time where you learn how to get people to tell you anything, and it's not like a a trick, it's not trying to manipulate people, you know, but it's it's it's being vulnerable so that the hiring manager, the client, the TA person, the candidate, you're their trusted ear, but you truly, truly, truly are. And I think I've always had that because I'm just an empathetic person and I don't push people into things and I truly try to understand where they're coming from and I try to talk people out of stuff all the time. Be like, let me ask you, like, you're in a great job. Why would you even take this job? You know, why? Like, I'm not trying to tell them, I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but have have you talked to your boss about a promotion? Have you tried to stay? Have you like this is not global? This is like talk them out of it a little bit, right? But like be genuine in that, not trying to like you want the job, right? You know, like I think when I was more junior, it's all those leading questions, like you'll take this, right? Okay, cool, moving on, you know, like silly, simple questions. Yeah, yeah. And then the the level of conversation, I'll spend so much time with people. I text every candidate. You know, the second they're interviewing, I text them. I'm like, here's my cell, text anytime. If you want to talk on the weekend, it's cool. I'm like, I have a four-year-old, he might be around, but like I know it's hard to talk during work, and I just want to be available to people. So I think it's just it's different than getting candidates in front of hiring managers and just pushing and pushing and pushing. And there's just a level of you have to just take a step back and really think. But but you know, just having not being afraid that it's all like I guess like what I go back to is setting expectations, preventing surprises. When I finally realized it wasn't my fault, you know. I feel like in the beginning, if a placement, we used to call it deal, and I changed, I always see placement now because deal, it's like, I don't know, if people say deal, but uh when a deal didn't go through, I felt like I did it was my fault, you know. Like I didn't sell enough, I didn't push enough, I didn't this or that, I didn't throw the kitchen sink at them. It's it's not my fault. It's my fault if I didn't know, sure. Like that is a problem. It's my fault if that's a surprise, but it's not my fault if the person turns down the job. And I think having that shift and taking that blame off myself helped me have these kinds of conversations because I wasn't afraid to hear those answers. So I just think there's like a whole other level of thinking about this stuff, you know, where you can go really deep. But on the other side, if you're talking to a client that's used to contingent, I mean the easiest thing is just like I don't do contingent, and the conversation's over. But if you want to help them educate, you know, get educated. What I found, and I think a lot about negotiation, and I've I've gotten a lot better. I'm always very good at negotiating for my candidates, but for myself, that's a different story. And I've gotten a lot better at that in the last, honestly, like two years. My husband helps too. Anything I'm gonna send, he's like, no, do this instead. I'm like, oh, you're right, you're right. Um, but realizing that everyone's on the same side, you know, like that's the art of negotiation. I've been listening to more podcasts on it, and it's not me against you and who speaks first and blah, blah, blah. It's like saying, like, I want this to work, you know, I would love to work with you. Oh man, like your culture is this, like your people are that. Like, wow, it would be awesome to work together. So, how can we make it work for both of us? And and for me, honestly, it's opportunity cost, like it's really opportunity cost. I have a small firm, I'm gonna pour my heart and time into certain things, you know. So if you want me to do that, I'm happy to, I would love to, you know, but it's it's I think it's that simple versus a whole thing about what I do. And but I think as a business person, the other side understands opportunity cost, you know. So I would I would probably start there. Um, but yeah, just a few things to think about. But yeah, I think knowing how to interview people, asking questions around influence, around it's not just skills, it's how did I love to start? I'm very deliberate. I have to talk your ear off. I'm so sorry. Like I'm very deliberate with when I ask what. I always do a first call that's 15 minutes. Like I reach out to a candidate, I say, hey, let's have a quick 15-minute call. If it's interesting, then we'll schedule the full video. And so I do the first call, 15 minutes. I pitch the role, I get their initial reaction, I ask big questions. Like, cool, like what are you known for? What gets you excited? You know, what are the biggest transformations you've led? Comp, location, are you looking? Cool. And then the next meeting is very granular. You know, how tell me about that transformation. How did who did you have to influence? How did you influence them? What roadblocks did you face? I can go on, but I love the vague and specific because I feel like then you really, really get to the heart of the person because the vagueness is like that's where they take it. But the specificity is you don't want to screen them out just because they didn't happen to talk about the thing, you know. So, and then I write down all the things. I I I am old school, I type very quickly. I don't record anything, but I um I write down all the things that they say that are interesting, but I also write down what I'm thinking about what like my opinions of them. I have a word doc open of how am I viewing this person and what they're saying as they're saying it, especially thinking about all the other candidates and the feedback I've gotten. And that's for two things. That's for my assessment when I write it up. It's also to prep them and it's to tell the client, like, hey, you know, you did a lot of name dropping during the conversation. Like, you know, I probably wouldn't do that, or hey, you you didn't take any credit for your work, or hey, this, hey that. So yeah, I'm gonna pause there because I yeah, I love talking about recruiting.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Well, I don't want to stop you, like I want I want to carry on talking, really. Um, I'm interested though, in well, two things. So the that's the level of assessment that you're talking about, this granular assessment and the kind of bigger assessment. Um, one of the objections that I get from people that are making this transition is, you know, but I'm working with this candidate and they've got you know they've got other offers on the table. Like I they haven't got time to they haven't got time to do all this assessment and wait another you know week or whatever it might be until you know the the shortlist is ready to interview. Like I need to send them over because otherwise they're gonna go, like they're gonna take an offer. I know what I say to it every time. Well, what would you say to that? How do you what's your how do you deal with that kind of scenario?

SPEAKER_00 36:42

I truly want to know what you say. Um what I say is I I would send them over and I would just explain the risk to the client. I will tell you, I found lately that clients usually don't want to wait for a shortlist anyway. So I I know I need to probably button that up a bit, but in my experience, I found that when I did, and I'm being just super honest with you right now, when I was used to wait and do the short list. I can't maybe I'm gonna say 90% of the time the shortlists were all known. And maybe that's on us, right? Maybe this is going back a long time. And maybe maybe we didn't truly because here's okay, here's why. Okay, so clients say they need this thing. Maybe my level of sophistication of how to take a brief has gotten better over the years because this is going back like you know, many, many years. But I do think it's like looking for a house, and you think, I want this beautiful house, I want it near the school, I want this, I want that. And you start seeing houses, you're like, I also want a pool. You know, I didn't think about that, but like now I the pool is a must and it wasn't a must last time. But I saw one with the pool and like we're in Texas and it's hot, and now all of a sudden all the houses out pools are no, and you're like, Oh, I wish I knew this about the pool a month ago because I would have screened for that. You know, so I found that having the beginning interviews like a little bit more iterative with the client, where we're like, look, we're just kind of calibrating together so that we can figure out the perfect person and the weighting of all the things. I know there's no perfect person, but there's weighting. You know, you have all these skills, but do you weigh this over that? And do you weigh all these personality things over this, you know? So let's figure this out so that I don't screen out great people and I can screen in the best people. And so I've I've honestly been a little bit more iterative. And I found that that's worked because of the shortlist failure I've experienced in the past.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

I love that. I love that. I mean, honestly, that's something that I used to sell against when I was selling against, you know, the firms that that they'd arrive at shortlist and present it, and then you know, they're not happy because I met so many clients where that that had been the situation, you know. And so it was easy to say, well, we don't do that, you know, we work with you, we're transparent, we show you, we'll even feed candidates through to you, and you can interview them as we go along. And if you want to make a hire along the way, you don't have to wait six, eight weeks. Um, but I got burnt with it so so many times. And and so I've found that it's got to be like, how do you because they'd see somebody and then they'd be like, well, I'll just need to wait though because there might be somebody better, and then we'd lose that person. Actually, that person was the best person, and then nobody matched up to them.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

I see. Okay. So what I would say to that is when I have clients like that, I show all my work. I don't mind. But here are the hundred people I've reached out to and to get to this one person that you love, right? So, and I will do my hardest to keep getting more people through the, you know, in in front of you as fast as possible. But I find that even if they're not meeting as many people, if they see the people that like some some clients don't want, don't want all the data. They're like, this is this this this report is too long, you know. And I also you can log into my, I use clockwork recruiting, you can log in, you can check it out, you can see who I'm reaching out to and stuff, but or who's who's in process. Um so I found if I show my work, they have a little more comfort that it's not just I called one person and they're seeing the person, and that was easy, you know. Like it wasn't easy. Like I like to start the first call with here's our approach, here's what we've done, here's the market we've covered. So I spent some two minutes on the process, and then, and we got to this person, you know. Um, but I'm with you. I think it is a challenge, and it it clients have lost candidates. They have, you know, but I again it's it's not a surprise, you know. It's it's always just putting it out there. Hey, this candidate is great, they have other offers coming. Do you want to see them or not? It's up to you. And I make a recommendation based on what I know about how long the client's process is. A lot of times the client has already had maybe 50-50. Clients had the role open for a while before they gave it to me. So, um, you know, because usually they'll go with a few contingent firms or they'll try on their own with their internal recruiter for three months max, and then they so they're actually not at a point where they need a full from scratch feeling because they've already met five people before. So I think it just a lot of those things have to factor in too.

Avoiding Endless Searches With Resets

SPEAKER_03 41:31

Yeah. And do you because the other thing that I found a struggle using that type of method where there wasn't a fixed timeline, basically. That that and and and again, I sold against that because um it worked, right? Um, that you don't have to wait, we're gonna we're gonna feed candidates through. That there was no end sometimes to the search. And there would be this just keep going, you know, just keep going. Yeah, no, whatever reason that was not right, or we didn't move quickly enough, or you know, we didn't know that we wanted a pool, so we rejected it, and all the rest of it. And that by that time, that's gone, that's ancient history, like we can't go back there. And we run out of ground to cover. And and that started to be a real problem. And and for probably I don't know, it's got to be about 18 months. Like me and my business, that wasn't my personal business, it was just that my business unit at the time. We really suffered. You know, the team just burnt out trying to deliver on these searches, and actually, somebody said to me the other day they called it the trauma of being trapped in retainers. And I really like the way he phrased it because that's what it felt like sometimes for me. Do you do you do you get that? And how do you deal with it, or have you got a way of kind of stopping that from happening, or is that some is that just a symptom of working in that way?

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Do you think I think what it comes down to is if you do the short list and the short list fails, you end up in that land anyway. Unless you say we're done, which I I honestly am not gonna say. So I I found that I I will have a short list today. We want our top three in play by this date. You know, here's our goal. Um and we cover the market. A handful of candidates. And then you have to take a step back. And I've done this a couple times actually. You take a step back. Maybe it's just with the head of TA or or the hiring man or just a stakeholder, just a one-on-one, and just say, hey, let's just be really honest with each other with how this is going. And sharing, like really unfiltered. Again, we're on the same side. We want to fill this role. And everyone's been a no, or the, you know, it's it's it's usually that the I don't think it's often that the candidates have withdrawn. I think usually it's there's something going on in the process or the interview process itself or the feedback quality or the type of candidates, but level setting onto because we're looking for these five things, this is what we're left with. And where can and I've had these conversations and it's been really awesome to have kind of a sidebar off the huge client calls. And then with that person, if it's let's say it's TA, you know, and this this happened. Um it's just one example I can think of where I said, you know, because you are looking for this skill and this skill and this skill, no, we we can't look in large enterprises because those tend to be separate functions and big companies and they're not all under one person, but you all want someone with scale. And so now we're looking for this someone who's so it's just it's making the market too finite, you know. So is there a world where if someone has all of these things, but not these things, but they can manage those things as long as the team finds they're credible, that we can go that route, you know, or you have other offices in this location. Can we look at that? Because RTO is a big deal, you know. Can we look at that location too? And the client was okay, you know, with opening up the aperture on the type of person we were targeting because they saw all the work going into finding all these things, which just wasn't working. And so, but I think it's because we had the sidebar, and then we can go together to the hiring manager with like, hey, we talked about this, and here's our solution. What do you think? And they were on board with it. So I think it's important to take a step back, reflect. Like, I will literally go through every single name on the search, every single name, look at the name, and like what happened, and just analyze it, you know, like what would I recommend to do? You know, what's been the problem? And I think having those recommendations, and if they're blind, I know now you're blinded by the sign. And if they don't want to bend on anything, that's okay, but that's just gonna take more time, you know. And if that's the if that's the thing we flex on is time, then we all decide it on time and not skills or not comp or not location or not something else. But you know, we can decide together. But I think yeah, having the sidebar and then going back with a new view with data points helps.

Her Book Demystifies Executive Search

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree on so many points. Like, if I don't, I'm not a fan of the, I mean, literally, I could talk to you all day about this stuff. Um, I'm not a fan of the you know, the classical model that says take the brief, go away, do one pass, point down to a short list, take it or leave it. If you don't make a higher, then it's your fault, basically. That's that's normally the angle. And I don't like that either. I don't like it. Um and my objective is always to reach to reach a higher, like, but we can't force them. We can't, at the end of the day, you can't force a client, can you? And you can't force a candidate to to do something they don't want to do. Um and your business our business models have got to be commercially viable, and we can't just kind of go on forever and not basically make any money from it. So it's a fine balance, and I've had to bring a search to that stage where I've had to lay out all the evidence, all the data, and basically say if you don't make a hire from this, these options, then you're not going to make a hire again. Like, that's okay, it's up to you. I love your kind of, and that's a big thing that changes from contingent to retained. You stop it being what you decide, and it's more it's up to them. Like, this is the decision to be made. What would you like to do? How do you want to proceed? And the ball is in their court to make that decision. And I've had to do that. And in the cases that I've had to do that, there's only been one occasion where they've decided they don't want to make a hire. And in that case, they were like, that's fine, they still paid me the final fee. They were like, We didn't think we were going to. I was like, oh my god, why didn't you tell me that at the start? I literally couldn't believe it. I'll never forget that search ever. I was oh, I was absolutely devastated. I worked so hard on that project, only to eventually after months arrive at this point where I was like, this is the only the only option that we've got. If you don't want to make the hire, I understand, but this is the this is the only the only option. And they were like, no, that's okay, no, he's not fit. Um that's all right, just send us the final invoice. So we didn't think we didn't think we were going to manage it. It was a real uh difficult project, and they were fine with it. Like, Jesus Christ almighty God, um Sabbath. Um, but yeah, it does happen, and there's a point where you have to draw a line, I think, and it's quite um important that as consultants we get wise enough to know when we need to draw that and when we need to focus our attention that the risk is that we we don't actually complete by making a hire. Um, I could talk to you about this all day, and we haven't got time because we've been talking for ages already. Um, I would really love to continue the conversation with you, Soma, and um tell us what will people learn from your book? Um, I'd like to know that, and I think our audience would too.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Yeah, so the book is geared toward executive job seekers, but I have had recruiters read it and say it's been very enlightening. And I'll tell you why I I my intent wasn't to write a book. I wasn't like, I want to write a book. I I I wasn't trying to be an author, but I decided to launch my own firm and I had a six-month non-compete. I waited that out. I took it seriously because I abide by these things, and I uh launched, and then COVID happened three weeks later. And I had like all these, you know, meetings, and they were like, we can't sign retainers, like COVID just started. We at that point we thought it was new, we thought it was temporary, you know. And so I'm like, cool, not a problem. So I took my pedal off the middle with um B D and I decided what I always do is let me talk to all my favorite candidate friends and say, hey, how are you? How's COVID? Like I did my pitch deck earlier, right? Like I started my firm and COVID's nuts. So I just wanted to know, like, do you want me to keep you in mind when COVID's over? And how are things? And I found that when you're a recruiter and you call a kid or is an executive and you have zero agenda, you're just how are you? Like, how's COVID? How are things? You want me to keep you in mind for jobs? Uh, and you're not pitching a job, you know, there's no agenda there. Usually you're pitching a job, you're listening for things, you're evaluating this and that. And I'm just like, How are you? People have so much to say about executive recruiters and recruiting and the process and search and all of it. And I ended up being this like borderline therapist for all these people. And I was just, they were just like, Look, and these are senior people. They're like, you know, how do I get Corn Ferry to even know I'm alive? You know, or how do I get past, you know, the Shrek firm and actually meet the client? I'm perfect for this role. Like, what the heck? Or why did this big firm send me on an interview? They said I did great. I've had no feedback for three weeks. Like, what the heck? And I'm just telling everyone, like, here's what's really happening, here, here's the deal. And then I would put on LinkedIn, like, I talked to a VP and they asked this and I said this, and these posts would blow up. And I'm like, I'm just gonna have to write a whole book about all of it. And then I was like, how do I write a book? And what's it about? And it's about demystifying executive search. And wow, you know, the thing I learned about book writing is you have to write to one person. Like, I legit, like literally had these people in my head. I was so it feels like I'm talking to you because there was no chat GPT, and I wrote the thing and I'm writing it as I like the way I speak. And but but I had to explain to candidates retained versus contingent. Because how many, how many job seekers say, Hey, can you just introduce me to this company? I'm like, I cannot, you know, but I have to explain why, and that's really hard to say. I don't want to say no, but like, no, you know, but but let me explain why. You know, are you one of the top five in the world? I don't have a contract with them. Am I charging for you? Like, I do retained stuff, it's a reputation thing. I don't even know you, you know, and so all the things. So I had to write a whole book about first, the first part is like contingent versus retained and the difference and how it works, and from a job seeker perspective or Canada perspective, like how to navigate all of that. And then it gets really into um the dynamics between like how businesses won because I truly think like this is the other thing we didn't really talk about, but now that I bring in all the oh, your cat's tail is so funny. I locked my out of the room if you hear someone screaming outside the door. She's she's always jumps on my desk. Yeah, jumps on my uh but I really believe that the whole business development cycle um dictates how the search goes because the promises made to win the work will get reflected in who's hired or who even presented. And and that's really hard to explain to people. So that's in the book of just this relationship between all the different people on the search team, the TA person, the HRBP, the hiring manager, me. We're all in this together and we all have different roles and different companies. So it's all this stuff. So recruiters started buying the book too, because they're like, oh, that explains it, you know. So that was a byproduct. I didn't intend for it to be for recruiters, but I think they're getting a lot out of it.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

So because of course, what I think a lot of contingent recruiters don't understand is that system and that structure that is within a search firm is very different from the way, you know, way a project is handled is with the associates and partners, and not necessarily just one 360 as they call it consultant, is it? And that's a different dynamic in terms of who's doing what and who needs influencing as a candidate. Um, I love your story, I love everything you share. I'm delighted and really honored to be talking to you, Soma. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Please say you'll come back and share some more wisdom with us.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Absolutely. Now, you I love what you're doing for the whole community. I follow all of your content. I've been following you for years, so I was honored to be invited on. So thank you for the opportunity.

Community Programs And How To Engage

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Well, that's another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies, and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrained search.com. And don't be shy, connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi. We don't bite, unless you're a track firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently. And we have our Search Mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more, and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast.