Meet David Plummer

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Retained Search, the podcast, where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. You shared a session with us in the Mastery group last year, and it had such a profound impact on so many people that were in that session that I wanted to share you with our wider audience. That's why I wanted to invite you on to our podcast. So, um, as a starting point, would you please introduce yourself to our audience, who you are and what you do, and then I'm gonna dive into why I wanted to share you so much with everyone.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Okay. Um briefly, which I don't do very well, um I David Plummer, 56, uh married to Nicola for 30, nearly 35 years, uh, two sons, uh 27 and 29. I live in Zimbabwe, I'm from New Zealand. I spent some time in New York, in Brazil, in different countries. Um yeah, love life. That's me.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

That's nice. And you run a firm now with someone very close to you?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

I do uh run a company called Triage, which is actually my second triage, because my first company, which I started in '94, was also called Triage. Um, and I never thought, uh I never thought I would start another recruitment company after I'd sold that, uh, but I did, and there were a few reasons for that. Um, but I got to start the second triage with my youngest son, Ossian.

Early Drive For Wealth

SPEAKER_00 1:59

And you two are a team. Now I want to dive in because um there are things about your experience that are so helpful for other people to learn from. And we all know some people learn from other people's experience well, and some people don't. But for those of you that like doing that, you said some really uh interesting things in the session, and one of them was that some of the things that you thought mattered in your journey, uh or some of the things that you thought mattered in life didn't deliver as promised. What did you chase early on in your career and your life? And what did that teach you about success?

The First Mountain And Its Limits

SPEAKER_02 3:01

So I I grew up, um I grew up in a uh an amazing family. Uh I was one of five boys, I am one of five boys, the eldest. Um, my parents were teachers, uh so we we had enough, but we didn't have a lot. And I I went to a school where um a lot of kids seemed to have an awful lot more than me. Um, cool clothes, cool kids. Um, and I basically grew up again with enough, so but everything was a hand-me-down. In fact, I got my first new pair of jeans when I was 14. And somebody, somebody from my uh from my church said, I'm sick and tired of David uh going around in in uh in clothes that don't fit him. I'm gonna buy him a pair of jeans for his birthday. And and so um that's sort of a a setting for I guess at a time when you're trying to find out who you are, right? You're growing up and the whole thing of identity. Um and I I didn't, yeah, I I I didn't want to, I thought we were poor, right? Um, and relative to others, we didn't have what they had, but we weren't poor. But I thought we were poor, and so I I sort of grew up not wanting to be poor in essence, and so um that there were a number of things that I guess were synonymous with not being poor, like rich was one of those, you know, being a millionaire or you know, having stuff, you know, starting out by having what you didn't have, and then of course it grows. So it has this exponential effect. And so when I started working, and I started in recruitment because um not per se because I wanted to be in recruitment, but because um I asked actually the recruitment consultant what um you know what could I do that would get me to making a lot of money quickly. And they said sales. Um and so I said, Well, what does that look like? What's involved? And they said talking. I said, Well, I can talk. So um, and so I ended up in recruitment uh and and that and that gave me from a financial point of view, it gave me everything and more. Um, but along the way, and I I started my first company very early, I was I think just turned 25, um, and very quickly, just happened to be in the right place at the right time, you know, worked in telecoms at the time of deregulator and a deregulation and a mobile operator licensing, and and so we just caught a wave. Um, so did really well, and so had a very nice, a very, very nice car. I already had a nice car, but a very, very nice car at 25, and a very, very other nice car at 26, and then houses, and and you're sort of you're going up this, and I think I I I refer to this when we talked last, you're going up this mountain that you you see as the mountain to be conquered, you know, uh what David Brooks calls your first mountain. Um and and you start getting up that mountain. And I I remember, you know, being being a millionaire was the the thing, right? Because if you had a million pounds, then you you were financially you know free. Um and you're not. Um and you're going up this mountain uh and you're acquiring stuff along the way, and you know, the bigger the house, the more stuff you've got to put in it, the larger the insurance bill, the more time it takes you to mow the lawn, blah, blah, blah. And and I, yeah, there was that 26, and I had everything actually. Um, but I kept going until I was about 30, because I, you know, you kept okay, if I, if I, if I, if I and I get to, you know, Nicola and I get to um a place where we're living in a sort of a 7,000 square foot house with 25 rooms and you know, your Ferrari on the drive and and and and in your own company. And in fact, you've just sold that company and you don't have any debt, and and it's like, is this it? Um, and of course it's not. Um, and so that was the first mountain. Yeah. Did I ask the question?

Identity Before Purpose

SPEAKER_00 7:52

You absolutely did. Um, you you talk quite a lot about identity, and uh you mentioned it there. When founders tie their identity to the business, what danger do you think that creates?

Vulnerability, Trust, And 2008 Crisis

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Well, lots is the answer. So um of course, who I am and what I do, they're related but they're not the same. And the challenge is if my identity is linked to either what I have or what I do, in essence, my performance on a day-to-day basis, if my identity is rooted in that, then when I don't have that or when things aren't going well, um, and it's our challenge, you know, it's the challenge you actually add our identity being in anything other than who we are, um is that life isn't like this, you know, it does it isn't a straight line, it isn't you know always good and getting better. That isn't how life is, and and I think you know, we don't hopefully I hopefully I haven't made this mistake with our children, um, but I don't think we talk about identity enough um in the in our formative years or as adults, um because you know, our you know, we're we're looking for meaning in our lives. You know, we're we're hardwired to look for meaning in our lives. And and there's a wonderful book that I'm sure many uh have have read. In fact, I asked Ossian, you know, have you read this book? And he said yes about seven times. And it's Man's Search for Meaning, which is a book by Victor Frankel. And you know, we're desperately seeking meaning, and we find meaning because it's a lot easier to find meaning in stuff and in success and in function and performance. We do, right? And and it's not that we shouldn't find meaning in it at all, but our ultimate purpose it cannot be cannot be um, I guess, discovered until we understand who we are, because our purpose flows out of our identity, and ultimately, uh, once we've it we know why we're here, our purpose, then we can figure out, well, then based on based on that, what should I be doing? Right? And you know, so there's a there's the question of identity, which is universal, who am I, the question of purpose, why am I here, and the question of um direction, you know, what should I be it by be doing, but they flow from one another, and and so when we don't when we don't have the right order, then we're stuffed. And I have, you know, I again apologies if I'm repeating this, but um, I have a lot of friends who are uh sports you know athletes, have been professional athletes, whether that be in the you know in the rugby world or in in the sort of athletics world. And and you as an athlete, you you're often or invariably you're finding that you're very good at something very early on in your life, you know, very much your formative years. And so they they have found their identity in being a professional sports person or in being a world-class athlete. The challenge is is you're not always a world-class athlete. And what happens when you stop being that person? Um, so yeah, for me, identity is is is the number one, number one issue. And again, we you know we see it in our work um all the time. You know, the number I was talking to um I can't remember who it was now, but uh this week, talking to somebody and saying the number one challenge we face on the continent, which is no different to anywhere else, but we work in Africa, so that's our focus, is is identity, right? The and we have all of these, yeah. I guess part of the challenge with identity is that we have all of these voices that are crowding around us. So before we even find our own voice as a child, as a baby, we have our parents' voices, our family voices, we have society's voices, we have our teachers' voices, we have culture, you know, all of these voices crowding in on telling us who we are and what's good and what's bad and whatever. And and we haven't even found our own voice.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

You said um that character carried you in uh the session that you ran for us when competence wasn't enough, maybe. Um what does that look like in practice for leaders?

SPEAKER_02 12:49

My one of my one of my friends says I am the most emotionally honest person they know. Um, and another person that you know says I shouldn't be as emotionally honest as I am.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I can't imagine who that might be.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

And indeed, I'm sure that's something you've told me before. But I think um I think being honest is and there's a like like lots of great words, they've been hijacked over the years or um like ruthless, you know, and authentic, you know, but being ruthless in terms of your honesty, right? I mean, you can't actually qualify as a superlative, so you're either honest or you're not, but but being but being being ruthless um about integrity, about um you know what matters, because the moment you start to compromise, right, where do you where do you stop? And I think, you know, I always remember, you know, in 2008, and and probably shared this before, um, but in 2008, I a friend of mine had asked me to, in fact, you met him at the wedding pool, um, had asked me to come and lead a turnaround. In fact, the whole of the board had come and had asked me to come and lead a turnaround of his business, uh, which was a group of companies not in recruitment. Um, and I had a a garden, um, garden leave from my previous firm. So I didn't start until September uh of 2008. And of course, in 2008, Lehman Brothers went down. And we were a we were a serviced office business. Our main business was a serviced office business. And and we found ourselves with Lehman Brothers down, the Bank of Ireland um called us in, who are our main bank, and said, that overdraft that you have, right? You don't have it anymore. Right. So they they took away our working capital um and credit facilities, so because they cancelled our credit cards too. So we had zero capital, zero cash flow. Um, and I still remember to this day saying to them in the meeting, this is going to kill us, right? You know, this is gonna kill us. And they said, Yes, we know, we're sorry. Right. And so we had zero options other than to be honest, right? Now we could have we could have spun it, we could have played it, we could have done any number of things with with the team, you know, we had about 650 employees uh with uh with our um with our clients, you know, the people who are in our buildings, the landlords, I mean, you name it. We had 80 85 centers, um, most of them in the UK, but some of them overseas. And you know, when everyone's looking at you saying, What do we do? Including Paul, it's like okay, well, we need to be honest. And so we were honest with our landlords, we were honest with our customers, we were we had a daily um before before they were cool town halls, we would have, you know, we basically had a daily call uh where all of the employees were, you know, so this is where we are today, this is what we're doing, this is this is this is the message, and it was a it was a really, really difficult message. Um but it was true. And people it's really interesting. Um when when I we asked the impossible of our of many people, of landlords, of I remember one conversation, actually he was also a shareholder of ours, and I I asked him, um we we need 300,000 pounds. Um and if we don't, then this is what's gonna happen, and I understand that has awful consequences for you, but we need it. And he said yes. Um there was another situation where where we couldn't make payroll um in the October and we didn't know that we couldn't make payroll until because we were literally managing things from moment to moment. And on the day of payroll, we didn't have the cash. And I I said to Paul, I need you to call this person and ask him for half a million pounds. Um and and this person, we weren't in the good books of this person, right? Because for various reasons. I mean, it's a really hectic time, no one's happy with anyone, right? Um and and so that that honest, that candid, um, you know, trust trust is at the heart of relationship. And trust requires you to be vulnerable. And and I think you know, we're we're we're we're not we're not good unless you practice anything, you're not good at it. But things like vulnerability, you know, I I I've had a really good example in my parents in practice in what does vulnerable, you know, a life of vulnerability look like. And um, and so you practice it, and so it comes easy to me now, but it didn't come easy at the first because it's difficult to be vulnerable. It's difficult to be honest, because honesty has has consequences, and and I think um, yeah, I could talk about that a lot.

Build A Business Worth Selling

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Are you enjoying this so far? Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories, and the truth about retaining so much. So if you want to hear more about it, or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right. Let's get back to the good stuff. Tell me um about exiting. A lot of founders, and this was actually the topic of the session that you ran. Um, a lot of founders talk about scale and growth and exit, right? You talk about building a business worth selling, but not building to sell. What's the difference?

Culture As A Competitive Asset

SPEAKER_02 19:26

So the most valuable business is the one that you're building not to sell, right? Because ultimately you're making decisions about long-term value. Um and the most valuable things are things that you are building for the long term. And in fact, I I I have a view which is everything pretty much it, no, everything that I am investing in. I'm not just investing for my lifetime, I'm investing for beyond my lifetime, right? Because the company will continue. My relationships with my children, they will continue after me, my grandchildren, etc. And so that long-term mindset is uh somebody um I hadn't come across it before, but recently somebody introduced me to ki cathedral thinking, right? That the people that designed the cathedrals and even those that began to build the cathedrals, they didn't see the finished article. They didn't see that cathedral built, but they had a vision. Um so I think there's there's a fundamental difference to building your life that way and building your business that way, to to building one where you say, I want to I want to exit in X number of years, as as if I get to determine, by the way, when I do exit, right? Because you know, you you you have no idea when you can exit, what the market's doing, the buyers in the market, etc. So I mean it really is a fool's a fool's errand to to to to to build that way. Um if you you know and and it also drives it drives short-term decisions, it drives the wrong decisions, it drives very selfish decisions. Um yeah, it drives it in in my opinion, and that's what it is, is my opinion, I I believe for the most part, it drives really poor decisions, and actually it's uh it it almost becomes a race, a race to the bottom of actually just how because you're compromising all the way, right? And so again, as I as I said earlier, the moment you start to compromise, where do you stop? Right, if there is no line, if you have no fixed point of reference, if you don't Have a true north, right? Then where does the line, and you know, um, I I I know so many people, and it's not an exaggeration to say so many, because there are so many, I know so many people who've been on this journey, and and the the question along the way, if not and if not along the way, but at the end, is like, is this it? Right? I mean, I somebody I know 40 million last year. Like, what the heck do you do with 40 million pounds in your bank? Right? Well, if you've if you've never had 40 million pounds in your bank, you have no idea what you're gonna do. And you know, it's a bit like the lottery winner, right? It's like they they don't know how to steward, how to manage a lot of wealth, and therefore they don't manage it well, they don't steward it well. Um yeah. So I think there's a night and day between building a business that everyone wants, but you will never want to sell, and building business to sell.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah. I heard something interesting recently, um, discussed about that. About the is this it, that the people who haven't got there yet don't believe that that could possibly be the case, that you could have 40 million in your bank and not be well happy, fulfilled, and that the mountain is climbed. And there's that continuous feedback loop that says, no, really, like it doesn't, it doesn't give you everything that you think it will give you. Um, I heard someone say, well, it's one of either two things. Either the people that are getting there are saying that because they want deter somehow people from thinking that, you know, they almost want to kind of pull the ladder up behind them to stop, you know, to stop people from getting there, or it's true, you know, and that's an interesting, an interesting analogy to think about over and and I too, like I was lucky enough to be in a room um who with uh a good uh uh work acquaintance of mine guy called Adam Gentry, it's Brian Dolphin running a a forum for business owners and leaders who have um carried out some kind of exit. And there were lots and lots of millionaires, multi-multi-millionaires, some billionaires in that room, and they were sharing experiences of what went well, what didn't, what advice and there were people in the room that were earlier, slightly earlier on in the journey, and that overwhelmingly was the topic. And I I can't escape that. You know, I did um, as you know, did a management backup with my team uh last year, and we uh enjoying the the journey that with them along together uh with that, but still you know, a big part of the business. Um I I because of that process have become so um much more exposed to people that have been on the journey and much more a knowledgeable um um aware of people that have been on the journey, and they all say the same thing, they say the same as you, and so I guess it must be true, you know. Um I have another question. You you said that culture was the thing that buyers saw and valued uh highly uh in your session. What did you do differently that created the kind of culture that they saw as valuable?

Leading For All Seasons

Beliefs, Values, And Dissonance

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Um sounds like a flippant answer. Um but I was just of all I was just me. Um I wasn't I wasn't trying to prove anything actually when by the time I'd by the time I started triage and it's a huge privilege to be able to start your own business, um, but certainly to start your own business so young, um I I sort of I sort of knew that what I'd experienced wasn't the way to do things, right? I had been disabused of of any notion that if I just follow this playbook, right, that um that I would get there. Right. I knew I knew that that wasn't um yeah, I knew it didn't work that way. And I wanted to find out the way it didn't work or the way at least it should work. And that's probably a better way of putting it. And so I you know I I was uncompromising in in my pursuit of what is the right thing to do. Um and I think I mentioned this on a previous conversation that you know when we did a piece of work on culture at triage, um when people were asked, you know, what's the culture at triage, a number of people said what's the right thing to do? That's our culture, right? And and and then when they said, How do you make decisions? you know, because culture is the the way is often defined as the way we do things around here, right? And well, how do you make decisions at triage? It's like we ask, what would David say? It's like because because at the time it was it was it was an experience that people had they'd never worked in an environment where where being honest, you know, recruitment environment where you're honest, right? Um, or a recruitment environment where you wouldn't swear, right? We we didn't swear. You know, I the place I learned to swear was on the rugby pitch, right? But you know, but it was the only place I swore, right? It would, it was in fact, um after you know, after we'd sold sold triage, um I was with somebody and I swore, and they're like, oh my goodness, where did that come from? You swear now. I said, Well, yes, I've learned a few things along the way. Um but but you know, it's it's uh being uncompromising in your uh in your pursuit of um I guess what's right, what's true, what's good. Um and that, you know, what happened was a consequence of that, right? It wasn't it wasn't that I was trying to build a particular type of culture. It was I was I was trying to find my way. I didn't know anything. I mean, genuinely I didn't know anything, you know, um when I started the first triage. Yeah, I knew I knew a little bit about recruitment and a little bit, right? And I was good at it, but it's easy to be good, you know, rising tide, floats or boats and all that, right? But um, but it yeah, I I wanted I wanted certain things, you know, even more than conquering the mountain. I thought, you know, well, actually conquering the mountain's the easy bit, right? Finding purpose, right, is the hard bit, right? And figuring out who you are, you know, go back to identity, that's you know, that's even harder, which is why so many people get to the end of their lives and still haven't answered the question. Um, or are still trying to answer it.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

You talk about, and you just referred to it there, about building a business that can weather all the seasons, right? Not just the summer. What do you think are the signs that a founder has built something that only works in fair weather?

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Well, um if you take if you take the um the sort of the character analogy um is a person's true character is who they are when things aren't going well, right? It's not that they're not the person when uh when things are going well, that's them too, but the real, the real me shows up under pressure, right, in times of stress. Um and so the real business shows up in times of stress. So, you know, how do you show up? How does your business show up when things are difficult? And of course, there are there are signs along the way, right? How do you handle conflict? How do you, what do you do when things, when things, when you make a mistake, or when some things don't go your way, or whatever it may be. And and so those are all telltale signs along the way. And of course, every decision you make around do I go this way or that way, do I do the right thing or the wrong thing, do I compromise or not, it lays a foundation in the business, in relationships, in in all sorts of ways. And of course, when the storm comes, right, what's the foundation?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

One of the um things you said, and this is the same on the along the same lines, is that these people and these relationships really matter. And so what advice would you give for founders? How should founders lead differently if they actually believe that?

Choosing Love In Leadership

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Well that's a I don't know I don't know well, I don't I don't know how people are leading. So therefore um I think so one of the things about integrity uh is you know and it's one of what are your values? Well integrity is one of my values. Well, actually, um Hitler had integrity. Right. He had integrity, right? He he lived, the way he lived was completely aligned with what he said and what he believed, right? So he had integrity. So having integrity is not enough, but but actually the the question I would have for for anybody is um not do you have integrity first, but actually what are what are your beliefs and values, right? What do you value? What do you believe? Why? Right? Um, because so many of our beliefs and so many of the things that uh that we value are either wrong or they're misplaced, they're misdirected, right? Um and so you know how how many how many times are we are we actually asked as people, let alone you know, uh as leaders, and challenged around the things that we believe and the things that we value. And of course, you know, again, not to return to identity, but the most important set of beliefs are the ones that we have about ourselves. So if I, you know, if I ask, if I ask somebody, you know, what do what do you believe about yourself to be true, right? And how does that shape your thinking and your behavior, right? And so, and of course, because that's what it flows from. That's why identity, or one of the reasons why identity is so important. Well, you know, I grew up believing that my life was worthless, right? That that actually there was no point to my life, right? Which is which is what led to you know um me not wanting to live at 16, right? Um, so so it you know that wasn't true, right? The things I believed at my life was worth living. I was somebody who had value, and I my you know, there were people who loved me, but I didn't believe that at 16, right? And it was true to me, but it wasn't true, right? And so so those beliefs, and therefore the things that I valued, you know, because because I I thought, well, to be somebody who was lovable and worthy and worth having a life, I needed to have all of these things. So I then pursue all of those things based off a set of false beliefs or values, etc. etc. And so you you know, and we do exactly the same in our in our businesses, right? We we go off, you know, we read an article or we we we attend this or we listen to a podcast or whatever, and it goes like, yeah, that's it, that's the one, and we clap, you know, onto it, as opposed to actually stopping and thinking, and it's not there's nothing wrong with that, by the way. You know, all of that stuff, you know, books, podcasts, YouTube, whatever it is your, you know, is your fancy, um, they're great, they're great as catalysts to think and to think deeply, but we don't think or think deeply enough. And again, you know, as a as leaders, you know, you could you ask the question um and try and get back to answering it, is is what is it I believe as a result of what I believe, what is it I value? And then are the behaviors, are my behaviors as a leader and are our behaviors as a business reflecting or in line with those beliefs and values. And if they're not, either change the behavior or change the belief and value, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah.

How Will Others Measure Your Life

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Because that because that dissonance creates all sorts of issues, both at a at a personal level, right, but also at an organizational level, even in a even in a small team, and we have a small team, right? But any dissonance, okay, is is immediately, you know, immediately obvious and uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

One of the most striking things that you said in um in that session was that your one regret is wishing that you loved more. What's what does loving more look like? And especially in in leadership.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

You know, I cried in an interview the other day for the first time. It's making me cry, just asking the question. You're gonna make me cry. Um I said to Enzo, you know, that's the first time that's ever happened, happened. And Izaki was on the call as well. Um, and it was recorded.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Um why why were you crying in an interview before you answered that question?

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Why? Um, because I was I was sharing something deeply personal with somebody who who believed had the same beliefs and faith. And and it was set it was central, in fact, it's at the heart of how I make decisions, what we were talking about. Because he was he was processing making a decision to, you know, for his family, um, and I shared my own story because he's Brazilian. I shared my story of moving to Brazil and how I processed that and the consequences of that and the costs. So it was very deep and personal. That's why I ended up crying. Um, so back to the question. So what does it mean to love? Well, you're at the wedding. Um, ultimately, I mean, loving the ultimate expression of love is to lay down your life for someone else. Right. And so in leadership, loving means making decisions that prioritize the other, um, that put the other person first. Um love is a wonderful verse that love covers covers a multitude of sins. You know, that actually when you love somebody and when you when love is one of the things that you want to to characterize your business, then you forgive. Um you give second chances, you give third chances, you, you know, we've talked many times about the number of chances um that you know people should have. And and it's you know, part of the challenge that I continually face is I believe what I believe, but it's hard to live what I believe, right? Because I'm constantly faced with situations, invariably involving people, where my how I want to respond and and the right thing to do, or even how I want to respond, and the person who I want to be aren't the same, right? I want I want to be I want to be a better person, you know. I want to love more, you know, come back to the the the way you started with this, you know. I I want to be that person who, when I have a choice, chooses love and chooses the loving yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Stop it.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Um Dave, at the end of it all, how should a founder measure their life and not just their business?

Closing Reflections And Community

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Well, I I am sure I'd be surprised if I didn't say this uh previously. On the other um so Clayton Christensen, uh he uh is a Harvard professor, was a Harvard professor, and he wrote a book, you know, How Will You Measure Your Life? And it's a great question, you know, how will you measure your life? Um I think there's a better question, you know, it's not that it's a bad question, but I think there's a better question. Um because actually, if life is about people and relationships, which it is, right, then it doesn't really matter what I think. I could think I've you know I've had a great life, and I have had a great life. Um, but it doesn't matter what I think, right? What matters, because if you know if love is the the the overriding value um and the thing that you want to characterize your love, it matters what other people think, right? So the question is actually, how will other people measure your life? How will your life be measured by the people that matter most to you? And so you know nobody, nobody, not even those in uh in the business, not Ossian, not Henry, Lynnette, Martin, Andrew, Jonathan, um, not a single one of them, Dave, is going to measure my life as a founder. They're gonna measure my life as a friend. They're gonna measure my life based on how I loved. All right. That's that's how my life is gonna be measured. And so that's what matters. Um and so it's making me cry. Sorry. Um, yeah, that's that's that's that's what matters. Um, and it's not, you know, I I I love you know this. Um I love the nice stuff, right? Right. I I love yeah, I love I love all of that stuff, but it doesn't matter, right? It doesn't matter, and so it's not wrong to have it, it's not wrong to fly a particular way, Tara. Uh it's not wrong, it's not wrong to eat in lovely restaurants, it's not wrong to drink wonderful wines, it's not wrong to have lovely holidays or to wear nice watches or drive fast cars or any of that stuff. It's none of that's wrong. It doesn't mean anything.

unknown 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

And and so it's you know, how do you again it's a constant challenge personally, how do you live a how do you live a life? How do I navigate each day really appreciating things and life and notwithstanding the grey skies, there is some blue out there, you know, the wonderful, you know, this wonderful, incredible world that we live in, right? But knowing that actually ultimately none of it counts. None of it matters, because because the only thing that matters is the person who was in the ring room at the beginning of the call, you know, and the people in my family and my friends, and the people that I get the privilege of loving.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Thank you. This made me very emotional. Um I've so enjoyed talking to you, and I know that our audience will have really liked that as well. Um Will you come back and share some more words of wisdom soon? Of course. Thank you very much, Dave. I really appreciate that. And it was just as moving and as insightful as the session that you ran for us. And I continue to be grateful that you're a part of our wonderful community and would have loved to see you in Dubai in next week or whenever it is, and devastated that we can't go, but it's for the right reasons. And I know that we'll get together in uh London in September, hopefully, instead.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

We will.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Thank you, Dave. Not at all. Well, that's another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies, and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearch.com. And don't be shy, connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi. We don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently. And we have our Search Mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast.