SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to Retained Search, the podcast, where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead.

SPEAKER_04: 0:20

Mate, you're looking very American today. I like it.

SPEAKER_03: 0:23

In your jersey and your baseball cap and your skinny face and red. I mean, no one's ever said I've got a skinny face. The beard will take.

SPEAKER_04: 0:33

I've seen it a lot chubby.

SPEAKER_03: 0:34

I've seen it a lot. You are right, it is skinnier than it once was. It is. Look at that slip back hair. Mate, I know it's getting long. I grew my hair uh a few years ago. It was just be just before I had my cancer. Um I was in Mioca and some guy walked past me with long hair, and I was like, he looks really good. I'm gonna I'm gonna do that to my hair. So I like I grew it out, and uh my wife said, Yeah, you just look like a gypsy.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08

Well, the thing is, Taylor's asked me to do because she likes guys with long hair. Not guy, but she wants me to have long hair. So when people say, Are you growing your hair? They'll say, I'll say, yeah, and they'll say, Why? And I say, because Kayla wants me to. Like, aren't you your own person?

SPEAKER_03: 1:22

I know, but I've I I just I really struggle with like getting up in the morning and like a feeling like I have to do my hair.

SPEAKER_04: 1:30

Hey, I don't mate. Look, half the time I'll like Barry Gibb off the BGs when it's not slit back.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37

Nice. Well, I've started recording already.

SPEAKER_04: 1:40

Um, I didn't even realise. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42

Well, this is this is the good stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 1:44

This is the juicy stuff. You you're listening to Barry Gibb, XBG, living in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_03: 1:51

Yeah, and you can do a live performance for us at the end of today's uh podcast if that's alright, mate.

SPEAKER_01: 1:58

Well, man, a woman to me.

SPEAKER_03: 2:01

This is going on. See, this is the goal that people tune in for.

SPEAKER_04: 2:05

Hopefully, there's like 60-year-old recruiters listening to this.

SPEAKER_03: 2:10

I don't know. Do you know? I was uh I early start this morning, late night. I had a coaching call last night with a customer of ours in Sydney. Um, yeah, already won the first retainer fly in. Everything is uh everything's going well. So welcome everybody to today's episode of the Retain Search Show. I am delighted to be joined by a close friend, I would say, Dave Wolstenholm. Uh Dave, how long have we worked together now? Four years, five years, four years.

SPEAKER_04: 2:44

You were so you were chubby then. Now you're this skinny wave, aren't you?

SPEAKER_03: 2:48

But this is it. It's it's because my brain's working overtime, thinking of content ideas. That's what it is. Yeah, and you've worked with Louise for probably longer than that, right? Probably like maybe six years, seven years.

SPEAKER_04: 2:59

Yeah, on and on and off. I've been coaching, consulting, content creation, all of the above.

SPEAKER_03: 3:05

Yeah. Yeah. So we're delighted to be joined um by you today, Dave. I suppose I'd like to start by just kind of giving people a bit of an introduction to you and what you do and what you help people with. So I'll I'll kind of give the floor to you first and then we'll we'll dig a little bit deeper if that's alright.

SPEAKER_04: 3:24

I like this. This is gonna get personal. So, what do you want to know? Do you want to know about me or do you want to know about my business?

SPEAKER_03: 3:30

I want to know about you, and then I want to know about your business.

SPEAKER_04: 3:33

Okay. Sometimes I've been on a lot of podcasts, I might be repeating myself if other people have seen me, but um X recruiter, only did it for a couple of years, so not a long time. Left the industry, became fascinated with recruitment because it's such a tough, amazing job. I was kind of like that, that kind of person. And um I think I realized that I was more of a business developer than the actual um delivery person, and so I then went working in a strategy company after I left recruitment. This is a long time ago now, and they were an integrated strategy management and marketing consultancy, and I just learned so much about business and branding and brand strategy, and then um for a number of years I'd been using LinkedIn to my advantage, and um I basically was creating a lot of content, and a couple of recruiters started reaching out to me going, love your articles, love what you do. This is like 40 years ago now, maybe 50 years. Yeah, maybe that long ago.

SPEAKER_03: 4:37

Wow, and yeah, and then LinkedIn was a very different place then, right?

SPEAKER_04: 4:42

Very different, very formal, uh, you know, very businesslike. And um, yeah, I then ended up doing, you know, just just ad hoc stuff, writing bios for a few mates in recruiting their own businesses, helping with adverts. But then I had this moment where I was like, Do you know what? This is this personal brand is a thing and it's it's gonna be amazing, but there's no strategy to it, you know, in in the recruitment world. And if you think about it, I talk about this whole time. For me, recruitment is sales, consulting, and marketing. It's a combination of those three, but no one's really teaching you about marketing and actually how the brand is put packaged together. So I developed a program, and uh, this was this was like nine years ago now, and there were some very, very early adopters, very early adopters. It was hard. I don't know. I remember selling my services, and people were like, What's this guy selling? Personal branding. Um, and I think I was the first company in the world to do it specifically for recruitment companies, anyway.

SPEAKER_03: 5:43

But what were people doing back then, Dave, in terms of marketing? Like, what would a normal marketing strategy look like 15 years ago?

SPEAKER_04: 5:50

Well, most companies didn't have a marketing strategy, that's the thing. Maybe the big companies would, but most small to medium-sized businesses didn't have a clearly defined strategy. So it was spending money on advertising, some did events, uh, they might have a marketing coordinator. I'm probably being a little bit heavy there, but yeah, not much strategy going on. Yeah, and all of it was around advertising spending more than anything else. And as you know, with recruiters, there's not really an advertising strategy to say, and so that just for a couple of years, it was just like finding these people around the world that bought into this program that was just like nothing else on the planet for recruiters, and then I just started to build a name for myself, and slowly but surely more business came my way, and you know, I don't want to talk about my business too long, but nine years on, I've kind of evolved. I don't know how what to call myself these days, but I've I thought I'm like a personal branding consultant, coach, context Jedi, Jedi night, wanker by day. Um, but like you know, I do lots of things. I mean, like, I've just done a partner communications plan. I do customer research, but it all comes, I do brand strategy projects. But you know, bread and butter, I'm known as a strategic personal branding person, but there's other skill sets that I've developed around that. But it's all about being really customer focused. That's that's my thing, and so yeah, I deliver workshops, I do one-on-one programs, I do coaching, uh, I write content for people, I speak, I run speaker conferences, I present at conferences. Um, I'm a busy boy. I'm a busy boy, very busy boy.

SPEAKER_03: 7:31

Yeah, absolutely. And you you've you've provided massive value to kind of well, certainly to me, but to us as a business over the years. Tell me a little bit about how personal branding and marketing has evolved over the years, then because it because it's changed a lot for recruiters, right? And it's become more accessible. What I really want to talk about today is almost the two opposite extremes, right? What are the biggest mistakes that you see people make when they absolutely butcher it? And then the people that are doing it really well, what are they doing?

SPEAKER_04: 8:09

Okay, there's a few things in there. So the first thing is personal brand and branding for most people, it's a must, not a should. Yeah, you know, it years gone by, it's kind of like I should do this, I should do it. Now it's like must do that. And I think more than ever, you know, if you if you're a recruiter with 20 years' experience, you've got an amazing network and you deliver great work, you might not be as focused on what we call you know social media branding per se. Um, and so personal branding has become a big thing that they push for less experienced consultants and uh and the like as well. Um I I think that people that you said that you have to who are doing it really well, I think they they go through a process, whether that be with someone like me or with themselves, yeah, where they go, you know, what is my brand, and how do I package that up? And who do I need to get really clear about? What am I gonna be relentlessly branding myself? Where am I gonna be doing it as well? And I have to make a really important point here, which you know, I beat for the brand. Everyone thinks of personal brand and branding just as LinkedIn social media. Yeah, you have to think of personal brand as everything, and the way that you brand that self is the way that you make people feel or trust or think about you, and so it's not just about social media, it's about how you answer the phone, how you give feedback, um, how you're pitching sales, you know, how you write an advert is still personal branding per se.

SPEAKER_01: 9:42

Of course.

SPEAKER_04: 9:43

Um and so your last question was around did you say butchering?

SPEAKER_03: 9:48

Well, butchering, not doing it well, like what what are the biggest mistakes that people are making?

SPEAKER_04: 9:56

The the two that I would say is one people joining engagement pods, which infuriates me.

SPEAKER_03: 10:01

Okay, and but and for those listening that don't know what that is, what's an engagement pod, Dave?

SPEAKER_04: 10:06

That's basically where it's there's some kind of weird person who basically he's making lots of money, lots of different people around the world, who join a pod, a community, a paid community, and they post and they are expected to comment with vanilla um commentary that makes it look like they're really popular. And often, you know, it'll be like recruiters doing that, and they're getting comments from a hairdresser in Baghdad or uh, you know, uh a nightclub dancer in Nigeria, and so and they're doing that to boost likes and engagement on the post, right? Yeah, and so I mean, some people benefit, I think it's almost like a tiered system. I think some people benefit more than others from it in that pod. But you know, the reality is it doesn't work, it just makes people think because we're in a society now where you know, if you're getting lots of likes, shares, comments, and engagement, you're pretty special, aren't you? Even though it means nothing, yeah, and you know, it has this false sense of uh elevation, and so that's one, but that's not as common in recruitment, that might be the odd recruitment business owner per se.

SPEAKER_03: 11:15

But I think the sense of- I did see you call someone out on LinkedIn for that a few weeks ago, made me chuckle.

SPEAKER_04: 11:20

Do it all the time, it frustrates me. You know, I'm normally quite a positive person, but pods drive me insane because I think people it affects people's mental health, do you think? And I've heard about people being spending money in these things and being forced, you know, like if you don't do more comics, you are out of this group.

SPEAKER_03: 11:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_04: 11:38

And that you know, it's just not right. Now, butchering, I think the the first thing is that people who just purely use it as an advertising platform like they were five or ten years ago, that's the one that's butchering, they're giving no value, they're not solving any problems. And I think the other one is where you know people think that I've got this perception in the head, well, they have this perception in their heads that I'm completely against personal content. It's not true at all. I just think it needs to be limited because it doesn't solve problems and help CEOs or senior leaders. So I think it's those people that don't realize that they've got to give value and it's all personality and personal posts as well. We're professional consultants here, you know, we're here to deliver outcomes and impact. And so, you know, me and my lycragen's with my dog, like of shorts, and my dash own dog.

SPEAKER_03: 12:28

Oh, you haven't been looking at my LinkedIn contact last week, have you?

SPEAKER_04: 12:31

Was that your dash own? I thought you'd hired it. But you know what? I suspect it probably again works for some people, but you know what? The people that I work with are professional career recruiters who want to be seen as trusted advisors online and offline as well. And so, you know, yes, they might put a little bit of branding from a personal personal flavour perspective, but they certainly don't want to drown people out with that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 13:00

And well, but that segues kind of nicely into I suppose the next question I have for you because I've seen even just I've seen I see LinkedIn, I think, through a different lens now as an opportunity, right, when it comes to personal branding and business development. And I remember working in a search firm several years ago and having a boss pounding me to say you need to be doing three posts a week, but it never being my skill set and never really knowing what to do, right, in terms of how do I make that content engaging. And I think LinkedIn um felt like a huge opportunity years ago because there wasn't many people doing this well, right? But now so many recruiters are posting content beyond just kind of your normal job ads and stuff like that. Has it become harder to stand out for people, Dave?

SPEAKER_04: 13:54

I reckon I've got let's have a look. I reckon I've probably got close to 20,000 connections or followers, whatever you want to call it, 17,000 followers. So you can imagine 94.6275% of my content that comes from my feed is from recruiters.

SPEAKER_02: 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 14:14

Ask me what proportion of those really stand out and make someone like me want to read their content. One percent, you know, in and around one percent. So yes, busier, yes, noisier, yes, you have to be mindful. You know, it's interesting. I interviewed a handful of executives the other day on behalf of a client of a trained community client, and they were basically saying they were coming off LinkedIn, which is interesting because they were saying, you know what, for us, it was a great networking site, it was professional, we just don't get it anymore. And that was like three different people that I interviewed who said that. So I'm asking them about what they thought of my clients' LinkedIn content as well.

SPEAKER_02: 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 14:54

So you have to be mindful of that. But I think the thing is that in this saturated market where recruiters are using AI and getting busier with it, the reality is that good, powerful, thought-provoking, easy to digest content, whether that be video, imagery, text, whatever, um, is gonna cut through.

SPEAKER_03: 15:16

Yeah, and that's obviously if you look at the 1% in your network that do stand out to you, I was gonna ask you what do they all have in common. And obviously, point one is that they all work with Dave Wolstenholm. Put put put point two, point three, is that right? It's thought-provoking, interesting commentary, adds value.

SPEAKER_04: 15:36

Yeah, and we've we've you know, and I'll give you an example of that. We've got a uh both of a client and this friend, uh Adrian Clocci. Yeah, is he is he the world's best? He's a great guy, he's a great recruiter, really great recruiter. And I know because I've talked to the executives that he works with and work with him. Uh, but the reality is that his content is it the world's best? No, and I don't I don't write his content for him. Um, but the reality is is that it's it's just good recruitment ideas day in, day out. He doesn't really tap into the business world that much, and there's no personal, there is nothing personal, and maybe that's a bleak point, you should change that. We I don't know, but the way I'm going with that is he just consistently turns up with good thought-provoking recruitment content. But the reality is that I think one of the things that I do when I coach my clients is you know, I say this all the time. People I'm allowed to swear, aren't I?

SPEAKER_03: 16:34

Fucking go for it, Dave.

SPEAKER_04: 16:36

Fucking hate nice one. People fucking hate recruitment, they hate recruiters, they might have a couple of trusty ones that they really like, but they don't want to talk about recruitment all day long. What they do want, I find, is they want you to know and understand their business and their business problems and how that relates back to people. So, you know, I I think some of my best clients, a fraction of what they talk about is actually recruitment, recruitment, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 17:02

That's why I've not got many friends, Dave. You need to stop talking about recruitment for everyone.

SPEAKER_04: 17:08

You need to join a pod mate, you make loads of new friends.

SPEAKER_03: 17:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's interesting as well. One of the words you mentioned about aging is consistently, and and and and I found that an important part of personal branding as well, right? That it's consistent. How often, you know, if you look at people, whether it's LinkedIn or wherever they're posting, wherever they're putting out this value-added content, how much, how often what should they be aiming for? You know, if it's someone listening to this podcast, Dave, that's not doing anything at the moment, what's the start point?

SPEAKER_04: 17:45

I'm gonna tell you a story that's absolutely not related to any of this, and it's changed my whole mindset, and I'll tell you why. There's a sales expert, well-renowned author called Tony Hughes in in Australia, right? And years and years and years ago, he started using LinkedIn, and he wrote article after article, he was putting that article three, five times a day, thousands of words. And don't get me wrong, they were brilliant, they were brilliant. And I messaged him once went, Tony. You know, I don't know why I didn't, but I said, you know, I just think you're overdoing it, you know, you're completely overcoming the feed. And in the space of about a year to two years, he had about a quarter of a million followers. He was talking and presenting at Salesforce in the US, uh, Microsoft in the UK, you know, so it it hit me that don't judge anyone on how much and how not. You know, that was somebody that had great expertise that I made an opinion on, and so now I don't say anything. My thing is if you give him value, it doesn't matter whether you post him once a day, 50 times a day. And again, I bore myself with saying the same things, but the reality is we're not I'm a target audience are not recruiters. Mine are, but your you know, your communities, yeah, they don't just sit there twilling their phones. Oh, I might just spend a few hours on LinkedIn today, you know. I might just I might just sack work off and just have a scrolling day, you know, they're an extra mindset, they're not doing that, so there's a good chance they're not seeing a fraction of your content anyway. Um, so yeah, I I I've been burnt in a good way. So who am I to tell you how many times you should post or not post a week?

SPEAKER_03: 19:30

Yeah, and it it's a massive opportunity for people, right? But building a personal brand, especially in a world where business development is such an important part of the job, right? It's probably harder to win new clients now than it has been in a long time, right? And any way that we, I suppose, grease those wheels is hugely beneficial. How have you seen, David, a strong personal brand directly support business development? Kind of not just visibility, like where do you see personal branding influencing the sales process? Uh, maybe even before that first call even happens.

SPEAKER_04: 20:10

Well, you kind of interchange the personal brand and brandings. Personal brand to me, so let me fire the question back to you. Yeah, tell me a brand that you you buy or support or follow religiously.

SPEAKER_03: 20:26

Um, I'd say there's a really good one. There's a company in the UK called Represent Clothing Company. Okay, what do they do? Clothing company, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 20:36

Yeah, they make they make clothes and forget their branding for a second. What is it about their brand that connects you to them?

SPEAKER_03: 20:45

So their owners are two young guys from the UK, brothers, yeah, local to me, um, very strong personal brands, yeah. Yeah, I understand where the business came from, what they stand for, how they operate, and I relate to them, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_04: 21:05

So there you go. That that's it. So I was asking that question. Sorry to turn it back on you a little bit, but it's that kind of trust and relatable and feeling that's part of the tribe. And I suppose where I'm going with that is if you can do that with your brands, then the branding part should do its job, really, uh, as well. And so um, let's just talk about what a personal brand is. It's kind of like it is trust, it is reputation, it is respect. And so, how can that not help the sales process? If, I mean, let's just say, for example, you know, you get referred to Jordan Taylor's meant to be a pretty good recruiter, but then that's kind of re reinforced online in your branding, and you're like, God, this guy's got amazing testimonials, his content's fantastic. Of course, it's gonna build trust, of course it's gonna make them feel like they are you enjoying this so far?

SPEAKER_00: 21:59

Don't miss. A single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories, and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 22:27

No, you or want to know more about you. So I think the thing is with personal brand, you know, if you've got a brand that's trusted, then it's always going to help the sales process. You might even get tapped on the shoulder before they even start the you know, the initial process of finding a consultant or you, you know, you interrupting them.

SPEAKER_03: 22:46

Yeah, and you know, I think speaking from from personal experience, having worked with you for a while, Dave, and you know, uh by no means am I kind of at the destination in my journey, but I like to think we put out really good content. I think the biggest difference for me is it is very, very rare now that I do a cold call. Almost all of the calls that I do are uh as a minimum lukewarm in that they know who we are, what we stand for, what we do, what our values are, what we believe in.

SPEAKER_04: 23:20

But I think that's that's also I posted a video about this today online about the difference between a business and a brand, and I think the retrain business is a brand, and I don't want to uh poo-poo you in any shape or fan, but Louise Archer was and has an amazing personal brand and branding before you, and so you know, and then you came along and you you offered a new perspective, a new voice, and personality and proposition. So I think it was almost like a trifecta, really. Yeah, um, plus you've got some great people, you know, more behind the scenes than you guys as well. Yeah, um, but yeah, I mean, you're talking to a kid here that spent his whole life cold calling. I ended up loving it. I used to love cold calling. I actually miss it a little bit. I love the I mean, like, I've just it must be seven years since I made a cold call. Now, the other thing that's really important, which I I always stipulate, is my competitors always go on about personal branding and cold calling's dead, and you you have to be personal branding and marketing yourself. Yeah, I'm sorry, but cold calling is still an art form, it's still a science. Done well, it's phenomenally well. Is it easier than winning business business coming into you? Absolutely not. But there's times with recruiters where you've got a head on candidates, which is kind of like a cold call, but it is a cold call.

SPEAKER_03: 24:49

And you'd be amazed, by the way, Dave, how many retained or people that do retained recruitment don't do that? They don't call candidates at their desk at work, they they don't co-call.

SPEAKER_04: 25:00

I mean, it just beggars beggars belief. Like if tomorrow my business went to pot, I wouldn't up my fucking LinkedIn activity by three million. I'd be getting on the phone. Now I'm very fortunate, I think the vast majority of people in my network kind of might know this Nobed. Um but the reality is that um, you know, it beats that marketing and branding cycle. You know, cold calling done well is interruption. So where I'm going with that is that yes, I'm very, very blessed, and a lot of my clients are blessed now that they do a lot less cold calling, if any. Um, but the reality is it's still a massively important armor. But the reality with that as well is if your branding is really strong, then when you're making what you think might be a cold call, it might just become, oh Jordan, you know what? I've been following you, believe it or not. So great piece that you wrote about um, you know, contingent recruiters on fire, um, blah blah blah blah. You know, the barriers are down. Cold calling becomes warm calling, but yeah, let's let's not RIP cold calling because it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03: 26:06

Yeah, it's a massive part of BD, yeah. But your personal branding flavour on cold calling, yeah, absolutely, and and and that I think leads me quite nicely. You talked about um, I think you mentioned AI a little bit earlier, and right now what I'm seeing is I think a lot of content feels uh templated, overpolished, maybe AI generated. How can recruiters, how can people listening, Dave, stay authentic, stay human without sounding underprofessional or kind of undercuts? Right.

SPEAKER_04: 26:49

Well, you know, I'm I'm not an AI expert, and I'm I I use it a little bit, I use it for more for I use it for research uh more than anything. Do my clients use it? Yes, sometimes they do, yes, sometimes they use it too much, yes. I push back on them. I I think if you're putting really good content through AI, and it's giving me that confidence to make you know sentences more concise, sounding more corporate, uh improving your punctuation, happy days. I think we all spot an AI post a mile off these days, and that's what it feels like. Um and the reality is that you know, I was talking to a client recently, and they were telling me now that um, you know, he knows an agency owner in Sydney that does AI videos for jobs that he's not even recruiting, he's just doing it for candidates, he's using AI. So this is the scope of where he's going. Um, so yeah, use AI to your advantage with um content and um framing and putting it putting um the format together. But you know, you have to say brand is about differentiating, it's about building trust, it's about being known for something that's not similar to your competitors. So if we know content works and we know branding works, do you want to be as authentic as possible? I know I mean I hate the word authentic, but that's what it is. It's about you've worked with me, I have this obsession with finding out what this person's authenticity, let's just say the realness of the matter, and then you know, bringing that out online as well, uh, and being that person offline. So, yeah, AI can work, it can be impactful. Maybe I need to be looking at more tools beyond chat GPT part 276. Um, but the reality is that um, you know, one of the things that I do now with my clients is I don't let them say no to video and they hate me for it, but they're now using video more and more and more because you know it stands out, it's not AI generated in the main. Maybe that'll change. Maybe we fucking monkeys on video. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 29:04

I have my head on the body of an elf at Christmas dancing, and my daughter loves it there.

SPEAKER_04: 29:10

Now I'd watch that, yeah. Um, but the the the reality is that video we've all been talking about video for years, and to be briefly honest, I've not used video enough myself until about two years ago, and that was because my written content and my delivering my work got me enough business. But I've kind of I've gotta I've gotta preach what I'm selling as well and communicating. So, you know, video is the way forward in this busy, saturated market, I believe.

SPEAKER_03: 29:37

There's just uh recruiters all over the world going, shit, I didn't know I was connected with Barry Gay.

SPEAKER_04: 29:46

But again, you know, it's I mean, I coach people and uh I send them the recordings of our calls, and I oh didn't watch it. I said, Well, I asked you to watch it. I really wanted you to sit down and think about what we're talking about. Oh, I hate seeing myself on video. I'm like, oh my god, you've got to get over this. Seriously, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 30:08

And you know what I do? I I understand where people are coming from. And if that is the case, if that is the case, you've got to you've got to find a way around it, right? Like, we're fortunate, I've got Sarah and Kirsty. If they ever ask me for video content, I'll be honest, Dave. I film it, I don't watch it back, I send it to them and say, if you're happy with it, post it. Because I know what I'm like, right? I'll get into the weeds with it and I'll end up recording the video 38 times. Because I think that's the end of the day.

SPEAKER_04: 30:35

You and I talk about this. You you know, you are another person, you're an amazing human being, you're very smart at what you do. You're scratching the surface with video presenting, creating good content. And we've talked about this countless times. Yeah, you're not unique, there's loads of great people that I work with that are the same, and so um, you know, and it's variety. Some people love watching people on video, some people want text, some people want imagery. Yeah, um, so you've got you've got to talk to your different ways that people want to receive information as well. Um, so yeah, video content is we've been talking about it for a decade or more, but now it's a little bit like personal branding's the hot thing over the last three to five years. Yeah, of course. Videos the the talk of town for me, many ways.

SPEAKER_03: 31:17

Yeah, okay. So I want you to imagine I'm a recruiter, right? I'm listening to this podcast and I'm literally starting from ground zero. Right? I'm not posting regularly on LinkedIn, I'm not doing video content, I haven't really been thinking much about branding, personal brand, what I put out there in terms of content. If I feel behind a ball or a little a little bit invisible right now, where should I start?

SPEAKER_04: 31:43

What's the kind of are you an experienced? Sorry, I might need to ask the question. Are you an experienced consultant?

SPEAKER_03: 31:49

Are you like brand new? No, I'm an experienced recruiter, but I'm just I'm really not leveraging any form of branding or personal brand at the moment. What's the kind of one or two things I should do? Obviously, thing one is contact Dave Austin Home, but other than that, what are the things that I should do to to kind of make a start?

SPEAKER_00: 32:12

That's a good question. Um two things.

SPEAKER_04: 32:22

The first one comes to mind is maybe look at somebody who's doing it well online, and instead of just appreciating them, study a little bit, see what they're doing, you know what's creating conversations, um, what's connecting with you.

SPEAKER_03: 32:41

Who's the best you see, Dave? If if people want to go and look at someone on LinkedIn now, is there anyone that springs to mind and you go, they're really good?

SPEAKER_04: 32:50

Um, I'm if I couldn't mention one of any of my clients, that would be a better way to do that. So um there was a guy that I really really liked to go, Greg Wyatt's one that I often talk about in the UK. Um, I really like the guy from Evolution that's left recruitment. Um, he used to work your company, lived in France. Lives in France, Monaghan.

SPEAKER_03: 33:16

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um oh my god, his first name. Odd You. I know his company, his company's called Odju's or was, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 33:27

But like his recruitment content was fantastic, you know, really data-driven, personal, talked about how he helped people, always connecting people. There's a guy in Australia called Ben Townsend who I'm friendly with, but we don't work together. I like what he puts out there in the world, he's in uh tech recruitment, tech sales, Simon Monahan. It was, sorry. Simon Monahan, you know, that that's just some main names that come to mind straight away.

SPEAKER_03: 33:53

Yeah, nice, nice, really, really good.

SPEAKER_04: 33:56

But again, just to add to that first part, so yeah, you know, follow these people. It's not about I mean I talk about the Beatles, they didn't come up with all their own stuff. Everybody, you know, uses stuff from other people, so that'll be one. The second one is you know so much. If you're a decent recruiter, you have got a brand. You haven't maybe packaged it up or being able to articulate them. But the easiest thing in the world is just to talk and think about your customers. Don't worry about your copywriting or your content style or how you look on video, just start to put some of those ideas out of the business pains, the things that you've solved, the things that they've solved, the things that you're talking about with them. And if you just start to put content out there, it will you'll gain confidence and you'll actually start to get some traction, and that will make you feel better about what you're doing. Then you put more of a framework and a strategy into it.

SPEAKER_03: 34:52

Can I give people a little tip? Just something that we've been doing more generically for our marketing. Um, if you guys don't use any sort of note taker in in your calls with clients, I would start using a note-taker. We use Fathom, um, but there are loads out there, right? Metadam. There are loads of them, and they'll it'll transcribe the full set the full core. And then what we'll do is we'll put 10 or 15 sales call transcripts into Chat GPT and ask it to pull out the consistent threads that come out in every conversation. Yeah. But the challenges and pains that customers are facing, the things that they need help with, the things that are going well, the things that aren't. And actually, that just gives us kind of the threads to pull on for our marketing, like what resonates with customers at the moment.

SPEAKER_04: 35:38

And I think the other thing as well, which I mean, dare I say this, I said this to somebody today, actually. I think when you work with someone like myself, I think you actually become a better sales person, a better consultant, because you're actually thinking deeper about content, about problems and you know, insights and opportunities. So you you kind of there's pressure on that, and you've got to create content, but you're also thinking, right, I need to be asking better questions. So it's not like what are your challenges? It might be you present some of the challenges that you're seeing and how are they impacting you, Mr. or Mrs. Client. And then you, you know, you great question, you get a great response. You're thinking, uh, yeah, you know, that's good content. So I didn't mean to plug myself then, but I was I get people thinking deeper about branding and marketing, and it makes them better at consulting and selling as well.

SPEAKER_03: 36:32

Yeah, I absolutely, I absolutely see that. And it's still, it takes me back. I remember I think one of the first times we ever had you kind of speaking with our community. I remember somebody saying, like, how do I know what to post about? And I remember you saying, but I don't just ask them what what they want to hear about. And it sounded so simple, but it's so true, right? It's about asking the right questions.

SPEAKER_04: 36:56

It's asking the right questions. I mean, sometimes you do that, they'll say job salaries and uh, you know, state of the market. So you sometimes don't always get the right answers. But you know, if you then had three really good ideas where you wanted to talk about, you know, impact, Mr. Client. Out of the three, if we were going to talk about impact hires or recruitment transformation or managing international workforces, which one of those three would be the most, you know, interesting to you? Yeah, that way they don't go salary thermine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 37:29

Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, it's a really, yeah, really good point. And how do how do you see it evolving over the next two years, Dave? I mean, I know that's all hypothetical, right? But what how do you see the future of personal branding? How do you see it evolving? And what role should what role should AI play in it, if any?

SPEAKER_04: 37:53

Okay, so for me, the answer with AI, I don't know. I actually don't know. But the things that I've been talking about for years and years and years being a public speaker, being a connector, offering solutions beyond just putting jobs on seats, um you know, holding events that are not just tick box fucking round table that everybody else does on those, one speaker, cheese and pizza, wowing people, you know. That for me is is great personal branding if you can be part of that. And I think that will happen. But let's just remember it, let's just get back to basics. A great personal brand is somebody who delivers a fantastic service, yeah. And so it's not changed from 50 years ago and it won't change 50 years from now. So let's forget AI, let's try and be the best consultant, consultative consultant we can be, and yes, become a better marketer. We've you know, it's taken it's taken 50 years to realize that recruitment is marketing, and now we're getting better at as an industry, but we're still light years behind real estate and you know, tech and financial services as well, yeah. Um, but it's moving in the right direction. But I think, yeah, let's not get lost here on that recruitment is all about marketing, it's about great sales, it's about brilliant consulting, marketing as well. But again, you know, it's about your differentiators. So, you know, if you're a differentiator and you you work out what that is in the future, is that you know, I've used this example before, that we attract better um candidates to our network because our social media is so strong and powerful, then that's your differentiator. You've got to live and breathe that, and you do that forever. Yes, new platforms might come up, but that's what you become known for, and you demonstrate online why you do that, how you do that, how it impacts the client. Does it speed up the recruitment process? Do you find those people that other consultants don't get because there's more trust? Just one example of like positioning the brand. So the future, I can't comment on what that looks like. I just know brilliant recruitment is brilliant recruitment, and that's never gonna change, right? Never gonna change and great branding and marketing. I mean, right now, I don't want to go into this in too detail. I'm looking at clients that I'm working with, not some of my best clients, about packaging up other services to add on to what they're doing right now, and I think it will catapult their personal brands like you would not believe.

SPEAKER_03: 40:32

And listen, I think AI will just make our jobs easier, right? It's not gonna change them fundamentally, it's just gonna make hopefully execution a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_04: 40:41

I want to tell you a story. So I've got a really, really, really close friend. I won't mention him because he's he's media shy. Uh, and I went out for lunch with him the other day, and he he recruits roles. Often the salaries can be like 1.5 million a year. You know, huge, huge placement. He's a brilliant, brilliant tool. And he said to me, I said, are you worried about the future with AI? How do you how do you feel? And he said, Do you know what, David? He said, the report writing, the proposals, you know, it's it's just AI has improved my life so much. And right now, do I need to reduce my costs? And I said, he said, no. And I said, why is that? And he said, because I deal with lonely executives, and when I'm placing them, they might want me to fly to Auckland or to Brisbane or even Asia, and they want to meet him in person, and you cannot be that. I mean, he's a very affable person, he's a very smart person as well. He said, Yes, maybe in 10 years, I don't know what that looks like, I can't predict. He said, But right now, I my life is easier because of AI, but they still want to meet me and be with me and can consult with them as well. Um, they want to have long lunches, they want to drink a bit too much wine, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_03: 41:57

Yeah, but I wouldn't fancy uh having a glass of wine with Chat GPT. Nice, nice. Okay, so what's next for you, Dave? What's next for brand me better?

SPEAKER_04: 42:13

Do you want me to speak candidly? Absolutely. Well, it's it's no secret that I've got Parkinson's and I've had it for a couple of years now, and I do have a young family, and my life is extremely purposeful and wonderful. And so there's a few people out there now that are looking to me to be more than just a personal branding coach, almost like being a like a brand advisor, like to their company brand as well. So maybe I see more of that, less clients and and doing that. Trouble is, I love fucking helping everyone, that's my problem. And you and I work a lot of hours, as you know. However, I've also realized I just love traveling, and I've worked with people all over the world. Like I flew to Sydney last week for work. Um, somebody's about to take me over to Japan in a couple of weeks, I think. Love that. Um, I might be running a conference in the UK with a certain company called what's the name?

SPEAKER_03: 43:08

I don't I can't remember the name of the company, but the guy, one of the guys is really good looking.

SPEAKER_04: 43:12

He is got so good at sport as well. Yeah, retrained, something like that. Yeah, so yeah, part of me wants to do that more. Um and you know what? Maybe, maybe I've got another business idea in me. I don't know, I don't know, but I just I just feel so bloody blessed. I mean, I work hard, I deliver good service. Some people might not always think I do, but like I just win business all over the world, it just gets referred to, and that is just a very, very privileged.

SPEAKER_03: 43:42

You are one of, and I mean this genuinely, one of the most natural business developers and connectors of people I've ever met.

SPEAKER_04: 43:55

What a value, mate.

SPEAKER_03: 43:56

You make it look so easy.

SPEAKER_04: 43:58

It is easy because I value it so highly. And that's what I teach people. I just live my highest set of values. The relatives that most people don't know what they are. And so the part of that brand is about uncovering these values. What do you value most in life? Put out of the world. So, you know, when I I'll give you an example of that. So when I'm busy working and somebody messages me and says, I'd really like to work with an executive coach. Now, normally most people would if they've they go, I might come back down to that in a couple of weeks or look at that email. I feel like I stop everything I'm doing because I love connecting people together. I get energized by it. I feel great. It's not like it feeds me ego a little bit, but I just love helping people. So I just live my highest values. And connection is like right now, I'm connecting with you and I'm connecting hopefully with the four recruiters that watch this at 2 a.m. in God's game.

SPEAKER_02: 44:52

It must be a popular episode if there's four of them.

SPEAKER_04: 44:56

But um, you know, that my connection that's wonderful for me.

SPEAKER_03: 44:59

Well, well, let's hopefully drive that, Dave. If the people listening want to get in touch, if the four of them do want to reach out to you, where where can they find you, Dave? How can they reach you?

SPEAKER_04: 45:11

They've got to ring my mum in Manchester first, and then she filtered over call. Mate, I just LinkedIn is just where people contact me because they've generally follow my content. So yeah, send me a message on LinkedIn, I'd be more than happy to have a conversation. And again, I'm always about helping. I might not be the right fit for you, but um might not be what you need, but I'm always gonna try and help you get what you want from me or somebody else that I know.

SPEAKER_03: 45:36

Yeah, nice. And we'll make sure we put your name and brand me better's details in the uh in the description for the pod. Dave. Excellent, fantastic, as always. Thank you so much for spending your time with us. I know you've got a beautiful young family. I know how busy you are and how many hours you work. Um, so I can't tell you how grateful we all are spending the time with us.

SPEAKER_04: 45:55

No at all, mate. I'll see you in five, six months in person.

SPEAKER_03: 45:59

Well, hopefully I'll speak to you before, otherwise, my content's gonna be shit. But I'll see you in five or six months in person. We'll have another night now, and and who knows, it might end up in a was it a drag bar we ended up last time in Sydney?

SPEAKER_04: 46:13

Hey, I ended up sleeping with that person platonically. There's just nowhere to go. It was either an airport hotel or there, an airplane sort of chose there.

SPEAKER_03: 46:21

Oh, nice, that was a good night. It was a good night. Good. Bye, George. All the best, many. See you soon. Thanks, Dave.

SPEAKER_00: 46:28

Well, that's another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies, and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrained search.com. And don't be shy, connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi. We don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently. And we have our Search Mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast.