SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Welcome to Retained Search, the podcast, where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 0:24

Yeah, we have. We have. I do like Christmas. I do. It's like I feel like it's the only time that that we truly switch off because everyone else switches off as well.

SPEAKER_01: 0:33

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

I mean, it's like it's actually, I kind of feel like if we tried to do any work, everyone would just think I was a weirdo.

SPEAKER_02: 0:40

Yeah, but it's sad.

SPEAKER_00: 0:42

Yeah, it's like it's probably better to do that.

SPEAKER_02: 0:45

Yeah. And we'd feel sorry for Becca because you weren't if you weren't like getting involved in helping at home, then it would be sad for her, wouldn't it? Because she'd be doing all the work.

SPEAKER_00: 0:54

Very lucky, yeah. I am very lucky. Because I spent um our leadership team spent the day with at your house, obviously, at the weekend. And I came home on Sunday and she's like, right, I've put all the Christmas trees away, all the decorations are down, this is done, that's done. And I'm like, this is easy work, yeah. Of course I'll help you put it in the loft.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13

Yeah, I know you are you are lucky. She's lucky too because you're a very hands-on dad, you're a very active, hands-on parent, and and you contribute enormously to um the whole household finances, the running of it. So I'd say you're both fortunate to have each other.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33

Yeah, thank you. I try my best. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36

It's the only year I've had an amazing Christmas, as I think I've told you and the team, like my best Christmas ever. And even since I was little that I can remember. Uh, because everyone, I got to see everyone that I love and care about, including you a lot, and um have fun with everyone. And everyone's good, everyone's well and healthy and happy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:54

No, but you've got to see your brother as well, and it's now that GS2, like there is something about having kids around at Christmas that makes it more magical. And I know you I know you've got Harry and Emily as well, but like Yeah, but they're teenagers now.

SPEAKER_02: 2:08

It's different when you've got a three-year-old in the house, yeah, running around. Yeah, it was it was really, really special. Um, we had a really exciting thing happen, didn't we, just in the last couple of days in our group, and we wanted to talk about it today.

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

Um yeah, Kirsty shared something, didn't she? Um insight around she'd been looking at kind of keyword search data through Google. Okay. Who's been searching for have you got it? Yeah, who's been searching for the term retain search?

SPEAKER_02: 2:39

It's phenomenal. So for those of you that are watching it on YouTube, you can see this image, but for those of you that aren't, it expands from January 21 through to well, probably September 25. And the average views, and this isn't the number of views, it's the popularity of the um search, goes from around the 25 marks.

SPEAKER_00: 3:05

But basically, if you look, it's pretty steady, isn't it? From 21 through to like mid 2024.

SPEAKER_02: 3:12

Yeah, for like three years. All stays around the same mark.

SPEAKER_00: 3:15

Yeah, it's quadrupled.

SPEAKER_02: 3:17

Yeah. In the last, yeah, well, six to ten months.

SPEAKER_00: 3:22

Since July 2025. It's quadruple.

SPEAKER_02: 3:24

It's unbelievable, unbelievable. Um, and it has just made us realise like there is a there's a significant occurring. Um the other thing that we looked at was the comparison between that term uh retained search and executive search, and executive search is even more extreme. I don't happen to have that image, but um it's even it's even more extreme in that um more people have been searching for it in the last uh six months than ever before, as far back as we we could go. Yeah um we ended up having a conversation about the difference between executive search and retain search, and it started to be very interesting conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 4:11

And actually, more than is there a difference or is there not a difference? Do people that are searching for that term even know, or do they think it's the same thing? Are they actually wanting to search for retained search and they're searching for exec search, or are they searching for exact search, but actually they want to be doing retained search?

SPEAKER_02: 4:26

Like, welcome to the can of worms, welcome to the can of worms, and that's what I wanted us to um carry on talking about, really. So we kind of stopped the conversation and said, let's save it for the podcast. Um what I I used to think, if we start there, I used to think that executive search was retained search and retained search was executive search. That's what I used to think. For me, they kind of were in the same not just in the same bucket, but they were the same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 5:01

Yeah, they're in the same bucket because it's the same mechanism in terms of financial commitment, right? And and that's what drives most people, I find, to start considering making this move is wanting to work with financial commitment, and they both have an element of that in very different ways in the course. I think the main difference comes in delivery and what problem it solves and what process you employ in delivery to solve the problem.

SPEAKER_02: 5:38

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I I found that one of the challenges I encountered in positioning retained search to clients that I was working with was that if I called it executive search, I then alienated or I was I closed the door on positions that weren't classed as executives. So they'd say things like, Well, yeah, but this isn't an executive position, so we don't retain on these positions.

SPEAKER_00: 6:19

Yeah, I I've had it before where people would say, Well, next time a recruitment of that level will come to you.

SPEAKER_02: 6:25

Yeah. But for this one, yeah, exactly. And so if you if I found that if I called it executive or even mentioned the word executive, the problem that I was trying to solve, which wasn't executive, I'd kind of taken off the table without even realizing it. So what I found was by separating executive search from retained search, I could I could position a retained solution for positions that were not executive and have a separate solution that catered that aligned with executive positions. So that when they said, Yeah, but this isn't executive, so we don't retain on, you know, it's not senior positions, so we don't retain on those positions. I could then say, Yeah, I understand, like traditionally, executive search has always been and retained search has always been reserved for senior and executive positions. Um, but what we're finding is that even at mid and um you know non-executive positions, the skill sets are scarce or the locations are difficult, and the contingent model's fallen over. But the principle of the executive search model allows us to apply a robust process and solve the problem. But it's not as expensive, it's not as report-heavy, it doesn't take as long, but it's leaner, it's faster, it's more efficient, and it's tailored to solve the challenges that the contingent model isn't solving. And that helped them to understand that it was something different from executive or what in their mind kind of classical executive search.

SPEAKER_00: 8:09

Yeah, and the thing is if they work with one of these classical search firms, right, that produced a 30-page report at the end of the assignment, that like that I understand why they'd be sitting there going, Yeah, we don't need that. I don't need that for my new job.

SPEAKER_02: 8:24

Yeah, totally, yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. And and that, you know, that I've I've done a big piece of work in the um mastery programme on the sales module, as you know, Jordan. It was my uh one of my things to get done before Christmas, and I managed to get it done. Um, but having a um sort of separating out your solutions, um, this can be one of the ways of being able to do that. You know, of course, there's something between contingent and retained as well, as we know, as you start to move, you know, more in that direction. Um, but staying on the executive search front, you when you you work for what was, I think, classed as an executive search firm.

SPEAKER_00: 9:15

Yeah, although I think um I think the lines over the past probably five years have become a little blurred. And that you've got a lot of retained contingent to retained firms in that bracket that want to move up to executive. And actually, I find that you've got a lot of executive search firms doing work at lower salary levels now as well. They understand they can add value there too.

SPEAKER_01: 9:43

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 9:44

Yeah, we did a lot of exec stuff, um, but we, you know, there were some 90 100k salary stuff too.

SPEAKER_02: 9:51

So when I because I moved from um, and I want to talk a bit more about the journey from well, not just from retained to executive, but from contingent to executive search, right? But when I got was first exposed to C-suite and executive search, I noticed some differences in what was being done. And you mentioned that you see the key differences in in delivering the not just the problem it solves, i.e., that it's an executive hire, um, but also in the way that it's delivered. And one of the differences I noticed was in the assessment of candidates, in the rigour and the thoroughness of the assessment of candidates. And the firm I work for did did it exceptionally well. Um, and I had never seen anything like it before. And I'd been fairly well exposed to really good contingent firms. I was formerly trained by TMP Worldwide, which is now Hudson Global Resources, phenomenal firm. Um, and Air Energy, which is now Air Swift, which is a global firm, incredible training, but never seen the level and the detail of candidate assessment and the formulation of the an agreement of functional behavioural competencies and the what we used to do headroom assessments on candidates, on leadership candidates, as well. What would what differences did you notice like when you moved to Collingwood from uh evolution?

SPEAKER_00: 11:29

Yeah, for me it's the it's the depth of all of the components of delivery. So, yeah, so if I start in assessment, right? I've done psychometrics before as an example, right? Like, you know, I'd say, oh yeah, put them through a Thomas assessment, and then here's the report. Yeah, yeah. What I've found when going up against executive search firms and understanding the expectations that customers had when paying for a proper executive search. It's the depth of understanding around a psychometric and being able to interpret the psychometric and aid the customer and give them the context to allow them to make informed decisions.

SPEAKER_01: 12:09

There was um go on, sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 12:11

No, no, no, it's okay, go on, you're gonna well there was a commercial.

SPEAKER_02: 12:14

I'm just remembering now some of the things that you you know that you shared with me, and there's a commercial change as well, wasn't there? You were quite restricted on agreement on the commercials, weren't you?

SPEAKER_00: 12:27

In what sense?

SPEAKER_02: 12:28

Well, you you had a minimum fee and you had to start.

SPEAKER_00: 12:30

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, minimum fee, it was always 33% at an executive level. Um, but that's because things like in-person interviewing was an essential.

SPEAKER_02: 12:42

There you go. There's another one.

SPEAKER_00: 12:44

Yeah, like like you know, you can't get away with a zoom interview. You can't say this candidate's really great. I've spoken to for 40 minutes over Zoom.

SPEAKER_01: 12:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:51

It's not, it just isn't enough.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 12:54

And for me, that was the biggest difference. It was more in delivery than it was in business development. But I actually, if I'm honest, part of me thinks it's easier to win exec search projects on it because the customer expects to retain.

SPEAKER_02: 13:06

Yes, you don't have to sell a model.

SPEAKER_00: 13:08

At that level, it's not should I retain? It's like who who should I retain? Should it be Jordan or should I go to Corn Ferry?

SPEAKER_01: 13:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:17

So BD, okay, you've got to maybe speak to the board, and there's maybe a few more layers you've got to navigate, but that's the case with a lot of retained pitches as well. In some bigger companies, the big difference for me lies in in delivery.

SPEAKER_02: 13:32

Yeah, and the the people and the firms that we work with, especially those in the mastery group who are majority or fully retained, and most of them, I can't think of an exception, doing executive work are very focused on making sure that their delivery is at the right level and constantly working on that. Like that we spend when we do our mastery events almost a full day on execution, on project execution, and the tactics, the techniques, the tools, the processes, the collateral, the data, everything that goes into it, and how to find how to improve it, you know, incrementally sometimes or radically sometimes for those people that are making you know big leaps. Um, and I don't disagree. I also see though, you know, when I work with people that are seasoned or experienced or veteran kind of classical executive search, you know, those like Thomas from Cornferry or Clark from BSG and the guys that have got that legacy background. Um they do have a slightly different approach to business development. Are you enjoying this so far? Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories, and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff. Um and actually, quite a few of them join the group or want to be a part of the group because they don't, they aren't familiar with the kind of hustle you like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:42

That London street market trade a bit too, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 15:47

Yeah, they're not as they're not as um comfortable with with with hustling as we are. And you know, the answer probably in the people that you see the most success with, you know, the Paul's and the Tara's and the Tom Middletons, and it's it's somewhere, it's the it's somewhere between the two. It's the it's the learning from both sides, the you know, the rigor and the KPIs and the drive and the the um almost attack approach of the of the contingent background combined with this heavy relationship-based and biased short list approach that that the um you know the exec search veterans take, like you know, one of the guys Thomas put it really, really well in the um uh the most recent mastery event where he said, if you've got a prospect or prospective customer, or any customer for that matter, complaining, like the objective is to get them to complain to you, then you're in a position where you're seen as an advisor, and that's where you want to be. And so getting into a com getting into conversations where clients start to reveal what their problems are, whether it's a bit dark growth or team performance or um acquisitions they're going through where they're having problems, whatever it is if you can get them to complain to you, and that is quite a different business development tactic from firing out 100 spec CVs a week or whatever your contingent KPIs are. Um, and you know, going and also things like um back channel referencing or forensic referencing, and the tactics that you use at that senior level to open up conversations and dialogue with the highest credibility because it's the research for a mandate, it's the back channel referencing or forensic referencing that you're carrying out for a mandate that you're working on again, is not the kind of conversation that you're likely to have grown up with. It certainly isn't the conversation I grew up with. I think one of the um questions that I wanted us to have a go at answering on today's call podcast was like I speak to a lot of people who would like ideally just to go, how do I get in? How do I get in at the top level? How do I get the 30-33% fees? How do I get the 100k um you know fee values? How do I get to be? How do I get to be doing one search instead where at the moment I'm doing five and get paid the same amount? Or do five and get paid five times as much? Like, what is the answer to that? How do I go from where I am? I see myself as just as capable as these Shrek dudes. Why, why shouldn't it be me and how do I get there? What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00: 18:54

The first thing I'd say is let go of the idea that you're gonna go from here to here. Yeah, like like no one goes from the step machine to the gym to climb in Everest the next week, right? Like, like it's a journey, and I've seen consultants do it, I've seen people come back in the new year, right? The new year's a dangerous time and go, decided that's it, not working anything under 200k 200k, minimum for 50 grand and not doing anything else, and I don't think I've ever not seen it go to shit. Like for me, there is a there's a few key things that I would do. Firstly, every time I engage with a customer and walking through the problems I can help them solve, I would have executive included in that because all of your customers are hiring at an exact level, and you're probably not even aware of it.

SPEAKER_02: 19:45

Yeah, but separate it from your retained solution, separate it out.

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

It's probably something they don't even think you can help with.

SPEAKER_02: 19:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:52

So say it's one for me is just make sure everyone is aware that that is a service that you can provide. And I know we've talked about. Delivery being a little more rigorous and more thorough, and there being things that you need to tweak and change, and there are. But I did it. Delivery is probably my weakest point, right? So like it's not like unachievable, it's not stuff you can't learn or figure out. Like you are absolutely right. Um and I would spend more time, I would I would probably target myself on doubling the length of every diagnostic conversation I have.

SPEAKER_01: 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:29

If you spend more time in the diagnostic and you ask bigger questions, I identify bigger pains. And normally I find the biggest pains are at the top of an organization. They're the ones that really keep them awake. You know, the engineer down in the technical team is an issue and we need to fix it. But the C oh well that's going to retire in six months, and we've got no one to step into that role. That's that's like it's a major keep you awake at night type problem.

SPEAKER_01: 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:56

Yeah, that's such good advice. They're the two things that I would do.

SPEAKER_02: 21:00

Yeah, such good advice. I I couldn't agree with you more. I see exactly the same thing. I've seen people say, Right, I'm not doing anything other than executive work all of a sudden. Now I've done maybe they've done maybe one director position and go, right, that's it, that's all I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00: 21:16

And then don't be controversial, but I find that I find that immoral as well, by the way. Yeah, the when I say immoral, what I mean is, right, the analogy, you know, I love an analogy. The analogy I've used to members is like when you get married, right? You stood at the altar getting married, and they say, you know, in sickness and in health and in good times and in bad, and in rich and in poor. I how how can I stand there to my client and say, when it's only gonna pay me 20k, mate, I'm not really asked, go somewhere else for that. But if it's paying me 100k, I'll help you. Like my attitude has always been, I want to help. Like I want to solve problems for you, and I want to help you fix issues in the business. And there are certain things, don't be wrong, that other people are better placed to help you with than me, right? And in which case, but if I can help you fix it, if it's a little under where I'd like to be, that's fine. I'm still gonna help you fix it. I'm gonna make you aware that it's a little under where I'd like to be. And you know, next time you do have something in the C-suite, please think of me. But like I just think that's what builds relationship and that's what builds partnership.

SPEAKER_02: 22:18

Yeah, that's what I say. Like, I for me, and I totally agree that it the people that I see being successful with this, and there are a lot, um, are often the people that come to me and us and say, right, this is what I want to do. I want to get up to executive work and I want to be doubling my fee or um whatever it might be from a financial perspective as goals, but they're prepared to go on the journey to get there rather than just expecting it, you know, them to make several changes and it just happen overnight. And I so I completely agree. Um, and I also agree that that journey to get there is like is with your clients and it is with helping them solve problems up the value chain rather than just going, yeah, I'm not fucking doing any of that anymore. I want that there, please.

SPEAKER_00: 23:16

Or not, but you would think that was it builds massive pressure, right? And the first my first job out of uni was selling adverts in the yellow pages, and the first thing that I was taught in the sales training is desperate people never sell, and that's what happened, right? People turn that tap off wanting to turn this one on. Three, four months in, they're going, I've not wanna I've not won a C suite mandate. And like the pressure builds and they get next.

SPEAKER_02: 23:39

I know, I know, I see it, I see it, I see it all the time too. And um the people that you know, if you look, and I can I can share, I wanted to share some real stories on this to give people the um the confidence really that you know you can do it, you absolutely can. As an experienced contingent recruiter that does a good job and does good work, you there's no reason why you shouldn't be doubling your fee or working at the C-suite, and you can. Um, and the journey that all these people have gone on. So Rob won his first CEO mandate, mandate. He's been on a journey to go from contingent to retained over what, two years, maybe?

SPEAKER_00: 24:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 24:23

Ben largest search engagement to date, he was fully contingent 18 months, two years beforehand.

SPEAKER_01: 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 24:30

I can't actually remember who that one was. It was at some point last year. Um, but C-suite work, this is a contingent recruiter that's gone from contingent to retained and now executive. Like it's a the retained is the step in the middle for these people. Um, three times the value.

SPEAKER_00: 24:50

Harriet's in the middle of that journey.

SPEAKER_02: 24:52

Yeah, totally. But so she says we're steadily working our way up the value chain. Bit by bit, we're shifting to more senior roles and just taken on the most senior search we've ever done. The commencement fee is the same amount we would have charged for a whole search, so three times the value.

SPEAKER_00: 25:06

I remember Harriet called me, I think it was in like early December, and said, I've had a customer come to me with they need me help with two roles, and it's not the C-suite stuff that I want. It's a little more junior. Like, should I do it? And I was like, Well, you've got capacity. She was like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:20

Do it.

SPEAKER_00: 25:21

I was like, Yeah, help, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 25:24

Yeah, yeah. Joe consistently winning C-suite work, but was contingent and then went retained and is now at the C-suite. It's been a journey, first time. These are first for a lot of these people. This is new, they've broken into this executive search world. One of the others was Russell Reynolds, so he's beaten Russell Reynolds on a project, and he says a year ago I'd have struggled to see how a tiny business would beat one of the, but here we are.

SPEAKER_00: 25:50

And listen, Josh, Josh has been a guest on our podcast right now. I mean, I mean this in the best possible way. He's the most normal lad you'd ever know.

SPEAKER_02: 25:58

He's so so down to earth. He's super smart, but you know, like he's not gonna rock up in powers.

SPEAKER_00: 26:05

He's not gonna rock up in a three-piece suit with briefcase.

SPEAKER_02: 26:08

No, right, right now. I I would I wouldn't I wouldn't be certain he's got a three-piece suit. Like most of us don't don't operate like that. And it doesn't, we don't need to. That's what that's what I guess the message is. I think this one was Ross, largest search to but to date um in Geneva, 70,000. And for some people, their biggest fee to date is a 40k fee, you know? Sometimes it's not matter at all. Um and she stuck to her guns at 25%. Like, this doesn't need it. Isn't a okay, I'm gonna go from 20% to 33 overnight. Like this is a gradual incremental journey that most people, yeah. There's another one, 47 biggest fee to date, 47k, which is I used to think was like huge, but now I'm like, well, you look at this, um 350k. Uh initial fee is um sorry, both world combined. This was 650,000 per search for two searches, 1.2 million US dollars for two searches, like now that's big fees. And this guy was fully contingent two years ago and has been on a journey, it hasn't just gone from you know 60k fees to 650 overnight, right?

SPEAKER_00: 27:29

And again, is the nicest, most unassuming guy.

SPEAKER_01: 27:32

Oh yeah, like you know, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 27:35

It isn't some absolute BD machine that you think like, God, yeah, but I couldn't do what Paul could do.

SPEAKER_02: 27:40

He's just great at what he does and yeah, totally, totally and so I guess when we see people um when we see people searching for executive search I think there there's a misconception that A, it's something totally different, and B that you you you take a pill or you you know take some magic potion or you do something and then you're suddenly in that world. And it's not it's not the case, you know. All of these people that are now in that world, that are now winning big fees consistently, two six figure executive projects, one which the Shreks pitched, boom, David versus Goliath. That that um message was titled. Um and they say makes me reminisce back to going through the retrain programme, followed by the masterminds. We would not be at this point. It's been a journey, it's been a journey. So that's what that was that was what I wanted people to hear, really, you know. That don't be frightened of it, it is a bit different, it's not gonna happen overnight.

SPEAKER_00: 28:56

Nothing worth anything comes easy, right? You've got to work for it, and it is a journey, once worth it, because it is big fees. I always found the exact stuff easier in terms of filling it. I genuinely did.

SPEAKER_01: 29:09

I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 29:10

I find that candidates waste your time less, more more enjoyable as well. Yeah, exactly. Like I really enjoyed it, and I I actually do find the delivery easier. Um, but it's not rocket science. No, like you'll have to work, it is a journey.

SPEAKER_02: 29:26

Yeah, but my need to get through retained first. I always get retained if I can do it. Jesus, other people once once you move to retained, it it's just a natural next step that you start to move up the value chain, isn't it? Like it's not a departure, like this is it's just the next step in the journey.

SPEAKER_00: 29:45

So yeah, and I also found that I once on exec um mandates just from delivering retained on some lower level stunt. And actually, I think what happens is the client relates it very closely to the exec search experience they've had in the past. Yeah, they see the weekly steering calls and they go, This is it's it's the same as when we appointed the CFO, right? Yeah, and then it's like Joe, can you help us with this as well? Because it's it's that same thing, right?

SPEAKER_02: 30:11

Yeah, exactly. If you put the right delivery process in, they see your capability, don't they?

SPEAKER_00: 30:15

Yeah, what one of the big changes I made in delivery is I stopped telling people I was from Warrington and started telling them I was from Cheshire.

SPEAKER_01: 30:24

Did that make all the difference? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:26

That was it, that was it, done, done, sold.

SPEAKER_01: 30:30

Oh, that's hilarious. I love it. Oh, so funny. Uh love Warrington. I was there, home Christmas.

SPEAKER_02: 30:37

It was a lot of fun. I love it. Um so if any of you want to talk about the difference between the two, of course, we're always here and always um happy to chat to people. And we want to leave you that with that inspiration at the beginning of the year, really. That by by the end of the year, you can be two-thirds of your way on this journey to executive search. Like, what's stopping you? And whether you use our program, which is exactly what this does, or something else, like fucking do it.

SPEAKER_00: 31:07

Yeah, yeah. May 2026 be full of six-figure placements.

SPEAKER_02: 31:12

Nice. Very nice. Thank you, Jordan.

SPEAKER_00: 31:16

Nice.

SPEAKER_02: 31:19

Well, that's another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies, and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainsearch.com. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi. We don't bite, unless you're a track firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently. And we have our search mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more, and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap membership to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast.