SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to Retained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Hello everybody, welcome to the Retained Search Show. Um, I'm very excited today to be joined by James Ward, who it's been a really long time since I last saw you and spoke to you. And I, although we've had a bit of a catch-up, we haven't talked about business at all. So I'm really interested to know what's going on. Yeah. And there's a there's a reason that we've decided to invite James on uh to talk to you all, and it's because he comes at this from quite a unique angle. Um, so James, um tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

SPEAKER_03: 0:58

Yeah, so uh my name's James Ward. Um I own and run a business called Clarity R2R. We're based here in Miami in the US. Um I've had the business 19 years. We're a leadership focused recruitment to recruitment firm, um obviously from the UK. Um, spent uh whatever 14 years or whatever it is in the UK. Um, worked UK markets, um, but then started transitioning more to US markets probably about 10 years ago, and that driven a move that we were planning personally to come out here, and then um yeah, came out here four years ago, me and my wife, and yeah, came out here and um yeah, settled here now and growing the business. There's three of us now, and um yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:43

And tell us about um who you serve, James, and how.

SPEAKER_03: 1:48

Yeah, so um, in terms of markets, I mean, and I suppose leveling, uh, predominantly technology, although we do an increasing amount more work in life sciences. We've just hired a guy who is focused on financial services um or leadership level, so essentially from billing manager AVP level through to board level is kind of what where we do outbound searches and essentially roles that we work. Um do we place principal consultants and people in more of an individual contributor sort of role? Absolutely, we just don't work on those roles, so we get a lot of those by referral and that kind of thing. But if it's a strategic higher, you know, a specific gap or you know, something senior leadership level, that's a role that we would work. Um, you know, sort of focus our efforts. Or recruitment firms for sorry, for recruitment firms, so technology, life sciences and finance um staffing firms across the US, it has predominantly been UK firms that are in the US. Um, but we are doing more and more work now in the traditional, I suppose, US staffing market. So I'm not saying we're we're turning our back on the UK, uh, the UK crowd, but in terms of the level that we operate at and are wanting to continue at um and go even go north in terms of you know, level more board work and and so on, there's more of that in the US staffing space than what there is with UK owned firms that are in the US.

SPEAKER_01: 3:12

What's the size of the market like for recruitment businesses versus in the US versus in the UK?

SPEAKER_03: 3:19

Well, it's an interesting one. I mean, in terms of and there's these stats around, isn't there, about kind of like you know, the amount of staffing firms in the US versus the UK, and I think there's like 40,000.

SPEAKER_00: 3:28

Is it about the same? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 3:30

No, it's less. So I think they say less. They say over, and this is across all markets, that there's about 40,000 in the UK, and there's about 65 million people in the UK or whatever, but there's 25,000 in the US, and there's 350 million people in the US. So, in terms of the saturation and the size of market, it's like it's it's it's chalk and cheese. So, and this is the thing is the fact that again, you know, just because we're from the UK and we have a really strong UK network and and so on, um, that pool is still is is actually pretty small in terms of UK firms that are in the US, and there's a big huge market out there that we do some work, but you know, we don't do enough, in my opinion. Uh, you know, compared to the UK, comparatively speaking. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 4:17

That's so interesting. So, does it mean that there's basically more market to get in the US then from I mean it's yeah, it's yeah, it's huge.

SPEAKER_03: 4:25

I mean, it's yeah, it's so vast. Um that's it, you know, and never thought of it like that. Yeah, it's it, you know, it's so vast. I mean, Artoir isn't as much of a thing out in the US as it is in the UK. Um, but for me that represents you know more opportunity and whatnot. So yeah, yeah, in terms of the market size, it's it's wild. We're in Miami. I mean, you know, we work UK wide. That's a UK wide, we should work US wide. Um, but I mean, that arguably should we have done that maybe just East Coast initially or whatever, but just based on network, you know, we started doing work all over the place. So um, so yeah, it's it yeah, it's huge. Yeah, it's huge. And we've not even scratched the scratch of the surface, to be fair, in terms of what we're doing. There's there's only three of us anyway at the moment. So yeah, huge amounts to go at.

SPEAKER_01: 5:13

Well, you say that um, you know, the UA US market is not as established from a Rectorack perspective either. When and how did you get into retroct? Was that where you started, or did you move from recruitment into recruitment to recruitment?

SPEAKER_03: 5:28

Yeah, so I started in recruitment 25 years ago. So I started at S3, as many as we need to do. Um at S3. So I had six years there. I started in Manchester, had three years there doing tech contract, um, and did did reasonably well. Um, and then I was tapped on the shoulder to go over to Leeds. Leeds had a team at the time that wasn't doing brilliantly well, and they needed um someone to help, you know, re you know, rebuild it and whatnot. Myself and another guy, Ben Broughton, who you may know, um, went over there to kind of rebuild it, then went, then went down to uh Reading. I stayed in Leeds and then managed that team for three years. And then, yeah, after three years, I was like, I think I want to do something on my own. You know, it wasn't going in the direction that I wanted wanted it to go in terms of my career and whatnot. So I was like, you know what? I think I just want to do my own thing. So I kept, yeah, from that point, went into R2R. I mean, the the the reason that I went into that rather than staying in tech contract was first of all, I hadn't been on the phone in three years. Uh, I'd been doing a non-billing management role. Um, uh, so obviously I didn't have an established network, I didn't have I couldn't plug into you know anything. I knew that it was going to take a while to build it up financially. I wasn't really in a position where, you know, I could Are you enjoying this so far?

SPEAKER_01: 6:48

Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories, and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it, or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 7:16

You know, you know, basically sit on my hands for you know six to nine months while building a tech contract business or a tech business or tech recruitment business. So I was like, do you know what? There's probably a bit of a gap in the market for people that or a business that's led by someone with my sort of experience, because I've been on the candidate side, I've been on the client side, you know, I've been hiring people and all the rest of it. So I was like, you know what, there's probably a gap really for someone who knows what they're doing in that market, because you know, my experience of Rec direct firms in um the job I was doing was pretty was pretty poor.

SPEAKER_02: 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:51

So I was like, you know what? I've got an established network and I can just plug into that pretty easily and and start, you know, doing my own thing and um have a bit of a lifestyle business and we'll see where it goes. Um so straight away I was able to supply back into the business that I just left.

SPEAKER_01: 8:05

Yeah, yeah, I did that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 8:08

And um, and then um yeah, of course, people, peers and whatever that gone off to other businesses and set up on their own, started plugging into that, and yeah, I was away. So I kept it pretty small. I did hire a couple of people at first, weren't the right people, and then I was like, right, I'm just gonna keep this sort of lean. I wasn't really interested in growing anything in the UK um until, like I say, the US thing started you know, becoming clear. And then how did that happen?

SPEAKER_01: 8:34

How did the US thing happen?

SPEAKER_03: 8:36

It was mainly driven by. I mean, I always had, you know, I've always been interested in in moving out here and doing the US lifestyle thing. Um uh and we used to come on holiday, obviously, to the U the US. We used to come to New York all the time and Vegas and you know, all that kind of stuff. So it was always like, yeah, that's a bit like you know, that's a bit of me. That was a lifestyle that I want to try. Um, but then um that was around the time that a lot of UK firms was first were first really starting to expand out to the US. So obviously you had the likes of Michael Page and S3 that were here, you know, early 2000s or whatever. But then there was this wave of UK firms, probably like probably 15 years ago now, to be fair, that were starting to expand out to the US, the Fadens, FRGs, you know, some of the some of these sorts of you know, LHIs, these sorts of firms were starting to expand. So I started supporting some of them with regards to you know staffing out there and you know relocations from the UK. And then it was like, okay, this is starting to become commercially probably viable from our from my point of view in the future. My wife at the time also had a uh a recruitment business. Um, she did an MBO with it in 2021. So at the time we were thinking, okay, we're gonna go basically on my wife's visa and she's gonna set up out there, or we're gonna do it, you know, via me. Um and yeah, she did an MBO with the business, and yeah, it was it became clear that it, you know, I was gonna you know support support the visa process and everything else, and then essentially started growing a business out here, and also as well, it started to come to the point where you know in the future I wanted my role to change. I had a you know a lifestyle business, was doing okay out of it, but you know, 48 now, so I was like, you know what, I don't want to work on my own forever. I want to try and build something and build a DNA and a culture and work with great people, and I also think that commercially there's a huge opportunity out in the US as well.

SPEAKER_01: 10:30

Tell us a bit about that then. You you've you touched on a couple of times. The that when you were at S3, the retroac experience you had as a customer wasn't particularly good. Yeah, and then you know, when you established um your business, you were you know looking to plug that gap, and then you just touched on it again there that um you know you want to grow a culture and a DNA. What is it that makes you different in what you do to the others?

SPEAKER_03: 10:57

Yeah, it's a good question. I think it's you know, without yes, one of our core values is humility. So it sounds like I'm tooting my own horn a little bit. Um, but you know, I think I think you know, my experience level, obviously, and I think the way that we the way that we approach the market, you know, the way you know we train the guys here in terms of how we, you know, I think it's a little different. And is it more advanced? Uh, you mean look, we're not we're not, you know, we're not reinventing the wheel here. Recruitment's recruitment to a degree, and I think, you know, the basics of it stand, you know, uh across many decent performing recruitment businesses that you that you'll speak to, but I suppose what makes us different is um uh yeah, probably the way that we approach it, my experience level. Um yeah. I haven't given you a very good answer there, have I?

SPEAKER_01: 11:48

Well, I'm just curious. Um because I I know that you're you are consistently highly recommended. I recommend people to you all the time, and quite often they come back to me to say he's too busy. So I know that you're doing something right. I was just curious to know what it was. Um tell me a bit about you know any kind of pivotal pivotal moments or kind of turning points in your journey in in the business.

SPEAKER_03: 12:15

Overall, or in the US or well, either, yeah. Yeah, um yeah, I mean there was a couple of points. I I I mentioned before I had a few hired a few people when I first set up, and that just didn't work out. And you know, I hired the wrong people, and um and it was like interestingly, seeing as you're the recruiter for recruiters, yeah, yeah. And uh, you know, I was a lot younger at the time.

SPEAKER_00: 12:37

A couple of shoes and all that.

SPEAKER_03: 12:39

Yeah, I did it when and I'll I'll tell you about a little point when I first came out here. I had a couple of the wrong people, you know, um weren't values aligned or whatever, and it yeah, it just didn't, you know, it just didn't work out. And that's fine, it was my decision. I hired them, so it's all you know, it's all about me sort of thing. Um so I suppose that was pivotal in the fact that okay, I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna keep this small and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna you know uh keep it small, work on my own, essentially have a you know a decent performing lifestyle business, had a good life, you know, had a nice place and whatnot, and you know, was earning all right, but it wasn't it, I I can't say that it was hugely satisfying from a sort of um uh from a purpose point of view. You know, it was like I'm just doing this to you know to make money and you know it's fine, but wasn't really sort of feeding my soul with regards to like building something and you know and being excited about having clear purpose, no, uh in truth. And um dare I say, you know, for a period in my 30s there, I wasn't really performing at the level that I could have performed at just because I was that it was a means to an end, I was just doing it for the sake of doing it. Um so I suppose that that was a that was a pivotal sort of moment.

SPEAKER_02: 13:50

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03: 13:51

And then of course, you know, when the US came into view, um that was like, okay, this is something we can, you know, this is you know, got I have got clear purpose here, you know, with regards to what we want to do with it and you know everything else. That was around the time that we started speaking, um, you know, and did the course or whatever. And and that was like, right, okay, if I'm gonna move to the US, I need to probably change the model and I need to reposition what it is that we do and you know have a bit more of a clearer strategy because just placing placing you know candidates with clients who aren't that committed is fine if you sat on your own, uh, you know, but if we're gonna go out to the US and all the operating costs associated with the US and the you know, everything else, it's like, okay, maybe we need to reposition what we're doing, the role levels, you know, how we approach it, all that kind of stuff. So I suppose that was another pivotal moment. And then, yeah, when I first got here, I made another couple of hiring mistakes. Uh, so you know, when I got here, I was like, right, okay, we've been doing all right, we're doing all three work, and you know, uh, we've got some money in my pocket, let's just hire people. And um, yeah, it yeah, I just I got that wrong as well. So uh so it wasn't long, you know. I had a couple of people, I had an operations person, shouldn't have done that, should have, you know, just hired a VA and you know, hired because I was drowning in admin at the time, and you know, I hired a consultant, wasn't the right person, and yeah. Then it was like, okay, let's just calm down here. Started working with um um, you know, uh a management coach, Nick Booth, who you may who you may know, he would talk a lot about the values, uh, you know, what values you know you have, what values you want in the business, what values you want the people who you hire to have, because that's the foundation for everything. That was pivotal, actually, as well. It's like that's the foundation upon which you build a house essentially. So if you just hiring people who can build money, you'll always, you know, and and they're completely different to you, you will always have problems. So values is the first thing, and we was like super clear about all that, and you know, that was a pivotal moment as well. And then I suppose when we've hired you know the guys, thankfully, touch wood, going third time lucky, yeah. Yeah, without yeah, yeah. So I think it's just that you know, I think it's just what a lot of people, you know, they come out here, they are, you know, they get some made a couple of mistakes, and then you find your way, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 16:09

I think it's the same with everything, um, as as well as not just hiring, but you know, finding finding out what it is is the basis of your business, you know, the values piece and the purpose piece. I I discovered that probably a year after I needed it. And I was so we're all just learning, aren't we? And I like um understanding how other people have been on that journey. Tell me then, you mentioned that transition for you, then that um move to retained, it was important uh to you for various reasons. One of which um, because I remember the conversation, you needing that found that stability um in the business uh being supporting that move. Um, what is your take then on the contingent model versus retained in the Rector Rec market?

SPEAKER_03: 16:55

Yeah, it's a yeah, it's an interesting question because of course you know Rector Rec is considered quite rightly because as it is most of the time, candidate driven. So should you be offering a retained solution for a market which is candidate driven when you've you know you can get candidates six or seven interviews and you've only got one because it's retained, yeah, and that is and that's valid. Um yeah, it's an interesting one. I think I think the first thing for me when it comes to this space and doing retained is the quality of the client that you're representing. Um so you know, is there something unique about you know the business that you're working with or potentially gonna do something retained with? Are they unique? Are they gonna turn people's heads? You know, what is you know, what is different about them compared to everywhere else on the market? And is there really a compelling reason as to as to why people should join them? And indeed, if you put people in front of them, you know, are they gonna come away wowed, you know, and impressed? So I suppose that's the first thing. It comes down to like, you know, the quality of the business. So we turn it sounds a bit doesn't sound a bit uh not very humble either, but you know, we turn a lot of business away, you know, even retained, you know, even retained if it doesn't, if it doesn't align. And you know, um, yeah, I think that's an important one to consider who you're gonna be working with. And we go around collecting retainers every day if we wanted to, but uh there's that, the quality of the business, B, you know, obviously based on that, I suppose, you know, uh do you really want to be on the hook, you know, with with a business if you don't genuinely think that you're gonna be able to convert you know with them? So there's that. Um I suppose, you know, in our space, um it is 50-50 on how much retained work you should do if it's a straight up billing role and it's you know, people who are gonna be just coming in building a desk or you know, whatever, because quite often that is gonna be a sideways move for people. Um, so that might mean that I mean, if you're if you're approaching a senior or principal consultant and you're suggesting another senior or principal consultant role, you're not gonna move someone who's deliriously happy, who's billing really well. There has to be a problem, they have to be disengaged, there has to be some pain in order in order for them to move, certainly sideways. Um, if at the senior level, at leadership level, obviously it's a little bit different because if you're you know working with a business and they're looking to plug a gap of a manager or director and it's taking over the team of 10. Well, you could look at people that are already managing teams of 20, you could look at people that are managing teams of five, you know, you could look at maybe who's probably someone who's maybe coming from a different market. There's a different and there's a different way of positioning it rather than okay, you're just gonna be doing this billing role and it's just gonna be doing 360 or whatever it is, you know, the same as what you're doing. So I know I've not really answered your question. I suppose it depends on you know the role level, it depends on the quality of the business. Um I mean, of course it depends, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:04

I've always quite liked the combination you mentioned that you want to consider how much retained work you wanna, you know, you want to do. I've always quite liked the combination of um and I did it when I dabbled in in rec to wreck in between different things of working on retained projects with committee clients that had a an attractive proposition, I agree completely with you, and working with the really good candidates and um introducing those candidates speculatively because I found that both of those activities kind of fed each other.

SPEAKER_03: 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:40

Is that is that an approach you use too?

SPEAKER_03: 20:42

Or yeah, we do to be fair. I mean, we we you know, we as mentioned before, you know, we we sell retained when when I think the situation um needs it, uh, you know, when the situation needs it, and obviously, of course, when it's something whereby we're confident we can work really collaboratively with the client, we think that you know that is genuinely the best solution. That's when we'll sell it.

SPEAKER_01: 21:06

Yes, music to my ears, James.

SPEAKER_03: 21:08

Now, it doesn't mean that every situation, you know, demands it. It may well mean that you know what, we've got we've already got a lot of retained work on, we can't take any more because if we're going to do the proper job of it, then we need to um you know run the process properly, and you can only run so many at once, so we have to be mindful of how much we take on, and in that situation, we might sell exclusive and see how we get on with it, you know, but we won't do a full deck and you know and all that kind of stuff, um, and the full sort of search process. Um, but yeah, you know, it's probably 50-50 in truth. Yeah, you know, with regards to like contingent versus retained, because of course we get, you know, I mean, we've got it at the moment, we've got a client at the UK firm looking to launch out here. Um, you know, we've got a couple of people we can bounce into it straight away based on network. We don't need to necessarily run a full search. No, you know, we've got a couple we can we can bounce in, and then obviously we get you know people who um you know come our way, referral, whatever, who are maybe more at billing level. And whilst we wouldn't work on a role at you know, consultant level or whatever, we will place people if they come our way because our clients are looking for them, you know. So in which case we will go out and get them three or four interviews at different places or whatever. But in terms of the spine of our business, in terms of what our you know, uh what our sort of market position is and what we sort of focus on, it's leadership level, and that could well be a mix of retained and exclusive. Um, but we would just we're just careful with where we um sell it and you know push for it.

SPEAKER_01: 22:49

I love it. I love it. I love it. What yeah is on is that sort of uh you have all that language. I'm like, oh yes, it's taken that on board. Like, yeah, I love that. I really like the way that you've adapted, you know, it to you and to fit you in your business and importantly your market, you know, because that's what it's about, isn't it? You you you you you pick you look to pick up a model or to utilize a model that you know is going to suit you and then flex it to fit, you know, you and over time it it just feels feels good, it sounds great. I can't say the number of retroacts that approach me that say, you know, I want to do retain, but it'll never work. And I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, like how many people do I need to put you in touch with to convince you that um it will. Not that it all, it's not you don't have to go, oh, I'm never doing contingent again, it's all going to be retained or that. You know, I'm not I'm not an advocate of that, and I say it all the time, like just exactly as you've said there, you have to diagnose whether it's the right solution to apply, whether it's right for you, whether it's right for the client, and then apply it accordingly and apply a proper process when you've got the capacity to do it and when you've got the right, you know, um, relationship with the client and commitment to be able to do that. So, yeah, I love it. I'm delighted, and it's not surprising that um you're a booked up and busy every time I try and send you some business, and B that you're hiring people. I'm like, for God's sake, tell them I sent you, and they said no, he still said no.

SPEAKER_03: 24:15

Yeah, it was the chap and um who was that guy?

SPEAKER_01: 24:19

You know, I send a couple of people your way, they nearly always come back. He's too busy. God, I need to get some rally points for James.

SPEAKER_03: 24:26

Also, as well, it depends it again, it depends on market. You know, are we are we genuinely in that market? And we, you know, we're not gonna like flex too much because that's a lot of other sort of retroact firms, they do a bit of anything anywhere, and that's not what we do, you know. We you know, if anything, we're up we're too far spread as we are. So we are actually gonna separate like new guy we've got he's doing financial services, but he does technology and life sciences, although we're gonna separate practice areas, practice areas, nice.

SPEAKER_01: 24:55

So we are you doing much search to search, or is it mainly about to rec no?

SPEAKER_03: 24:59

So that's a good that's a good question. So that's an area that we are gonna go into, but we know we don't, and and and and we essentially, I suppose, work the the mid-market contingent firms who do retain, um, as opposed to you know proper search firms want to have a better phrase, you know. So and I think that's a whole new world, and it absolutely is. I've never really done much in it. I mean, I you know, I've I've only just got my head around recently, you know, what the different levels of meaning associates and partners, and yeah, yeah. So I don't it's just an area that I've never done any work, but we are. I mean, there's a few areas that we want to get deeper in in 2026 and beyond, and life sciences is one, financial services got a guy doing um energy is another, and and search to search isn't isn't is another. So we just need someone ideally who's you know got some experience of that, you know, market probably. So yeah, yeah, I know there's you know, there's big fees available, and of course, you know, shouldn't be too hard selling retained to retain firms, should it?

SPEAKER_01: 26:00

Well, you'd think that, but one of the returns that did our program, probably around the same time as you, uh, was the same. It was all recruitment to recruitment, and he wanted no, he was doing recruitment um to search, but he was operating and search to search, but operating a contingent model and couldn't sell retained into the search firms. I mean, now he is, so he did the course, but now of course it's uh it's all retained, but he just wasn't confident enough because he hadn't, he didn't really know what the process was supposed to look like and was kind of too embarrassed to ask his clients, you know, what it should look like. So once he knew what it was, it's fine.

SPEAKER_03: 26:36

If he can be judged, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:38

Totally, yeah. Totally. Like you're a bit under a microscope when you're providing the service into the firm that is a specialist in providing that service, right?

SPEAKER_03: 26:46

Yeah, yeah, mind you, you know, I sound surprised I shouldn't be. Recruitment, but recruitment businesses and recruitment businesses are the most like double standard people in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 26:56

Yeah, hypocritical, yeah, completely. Yeah, well, I'm happy to give you some little tidbits of advice on that if you want someone to search this. Yeah, yeah, happy to. Um, one thing I do want to know, I wanted to ask you have you noticed shifts or changes in demands um in terms of types of recruiters that your clients are looking for? Contingent, retained, or niche, or you know, coming from certain backgrounds. What do you notice in this market?

SPEAKER_03: 27:21

I mean, we, you know, touch wood, you know, have we don't see a real issue with the market, really. And I I think you know, you have to not issue, but like a shift.

SPEAKER_01: 27:30

Do you get do you notice kind of changes? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:34

Not massively. I suppose, I suppose, yeah, the big shift, you know, a few years ago, you know, post-COVID and all the rest of it, was and obviously when the market dipped, was the fact that, of course, at leadership level, which is where we you know position ourselves, um, a lot of people that were operational and essentially doing a non-billing role were obviously squeezed. A lot of teams were caught, you know, people's roles are a lot smaller than what they may have been a year or two years previously. So, you know, people were starting to come onto the market at that level quite, you know, quite a lot. Um, even if they had been doing some billing and you know, whatever, people they were being looked at as okay, you're a really expensive billing manager now, so we're probably gonna, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:16

Yeah, they're quite vulnerable in that position, actually, aren't you?

SPEAKER_03: 28:19

Yeah, so it's like okay, I'm pretty exposed here. So a lot of people were either moving on, or they were like, Okay, if I'm gonna have to rebuild the team, um, do I need to do it here, or should I just maybe jump ship and maybe pick up the team? Uh but of course there wasn't as many roles around. So I suppose there was a bit of a shift, or there was a bit of a shift then.

SPEAKER_01: 28:37

Um do you see demand for people with retained experience at all? Do you see that increase?

SPEAKER_03: 28:44

Not no, not massively, in truth. No, not massively, not not in the not in the client base that we work. Um, I can't say that we have many clients. Yeah, I can't say that we have many clients saying, okay, mind you, that's a lie. We've just had a client, funnily enough, on retainer, um, that Billy's working, that um is uh a contingent firm that does quite a lot of retained, and they want someone to be head of exec search. But I would say that's probably the first role we've worked, uh, where we're actually approaching the exec search market.

SPEAKER_01: 29:19

Right, they want to build a retained practice, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 29:22

And they want a specific practice focused on that. Billy's just started it this week. Um, so yeah, there's the first one actually.

SPEAKER_00: 29:29

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_03: 29:31

So so but apart from that, I can't say and if if people probably passed us uh asked us in the in the past, um, oh you know, we want someone specific retained, we'd have probably said, Oh, I don't know, it's not quite our it's not quite our thing. Um, just based on like I say, us working with the more you know contingent mid market firms essentially do a bit of retained, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:54

Which is which is the the main market in the US, I think. That's that's the the biggest market is. Mid-market consingent doing a little bit of retain, like taking a bit of money up front here and there, or packaging up a few rolls. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_02: 30:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:07

And um what um do people look for? So you're as you said, it's a very candidate-driven market, and um it is, I think, in most regions, I can't think of an exception, that Retro Rec isn't candidate-driven. It's important, isn't it, that you say the client's proposition is attractive, is appealing, that people want to go and work for them. What is it they're looking for? What is what is it they want, what is attractive to recruiters at the moment?

SPEAKER_03: 30:37

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think you know, I think uh when it comes to what makes uh a business um attractive, um, I mean performance level, you know. Look, if you want to hire A players, you want to hire high performers, you need to be high performance yourself. I think. Um, you know, if you're a low performance business with with bad churn, don't expect to hire any A players anytime soon. So I think that's that's probably the first point. What's your performance level? What's your productivity per head? What's um what's the strength of leadership? You know, um we hear a lot about um you know well say hear a lot about every single recruitment business under the sun says generally they're gonna sell and they're gonna do some sort of transaction. How realistic is that? Have the leadership been on that journey before? Have they got a blueprint on how to do it? How networked are they in that P world or in that space? So I think that's that's something important to consider because that's the equity piece is something that gets sort of banded around a lot. So that's an important one to consider. You know, do they have a go-to-market strategy, which is unique, you know, market positioning? Um, so you know, um, yeah, is there something genuinely different about the business with regards to what they're doing? Have they got great advisors? Have they got, you know, good trade, you know, all this kind of stuff. So I suppose it it's maybe a mix of that, but bottom line is you want a business that's ideally got, you know, really strong retention, high performance level, strong leadership, probably leading, moving towards some sort of transaction with a proven model of doing it, you know, good go-to-market strategy in really exciting markets that are maybe underbrokered. I think that's probably it.

SPEAKER_01: 32:17

Yeah, that's really nice. That's such good advice.

SPEAKER_03: 32:20

A good way to position it, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 32:21

And um, what do you think the REC to rec market in the US is going to look like in you know, several years' time? You say it's underdeveloped, it's um there's obviously a huge opportunity there for you. What what what do you see it looking like? What's where's it going?

SPEAKER_03: 32:39

I mean, the there's obviously a huge market out here. I know that there's a lot of other firms that that are kind of in our space, you know, say in our space. I don't think anyone sort of does what we do, how we do it, but um uh but yeah, there's other people giving it a go, I suppose. Um but uh but they're doing it from a generally speaking, they're doing it from afar, they're doing it from the UK or you know, whatever. And I understand why the UK market is obviously saturated, it's tough, it's it's lower margin, it's lower salary, fee level lower, all that kind of stuff. Um that said, back there, you know, they're not as networked, it's US hours, as you know, you know, all that kind of stuff. Uh not many sort of, you know, say, right, okay, we're gonna do it and we're gonna stick and put our money on the table and move out there. You know, you don't there is there's a handful of people that are doing it. Um yeah, you know, out here.

SPEAKER_01: 33:31

There's probably still plenty to go around there.

SPEAKER_03: 33:33

Well, there is, yeah, I mean, and there are you know, they're only there's only a handful. I think they're pretty small, and you know, they do all the markets, some are doing junior level, some are mid-market level or uh or whatever. So in terms of I mean, I mean, obviously, we you know, we we support the staffing industry essentially, and the staffing industry isn't going anywhere, I think, in the US. Everyone, in terms of the you know, the globe globally, the opportunities in the US now. I think it's pretty, I think from what I'm told, Europe is a much tougher market now than what it used to be. UK is obviously just the UK. I'm not sure about I believe Japan, you probably know better more than me on this, but I believe Japan is is is an amazing market. But yeah, you know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:19

I mean they don't use LinkedIn for a start, so you know, where where where do you go? How do you find people? Um, yeah, that's that's that's one of the big differences. Um, and nobody moves, you so it's jobs for life. So that's another fucking major difference. So you you know that's that's a complete uh game changer, and so for that reason, fees are like 40, 44 percent. That standard average fee for a recruitment agency in Japan's 40 percent. But then how do you find people and how do you move people when there's no LinkedIn and people don't move? Like it's really, really difficult. It's really difficult to do. Don't speak the lingo, and yeah, a lot of people don't speak English, so that's another one. You've got to learn Japanese, you've got to figure out how to find people with no LinkedIn, you want to move people that have got a job for life, and you've got to speak a language that you don't know. So I think it's there's quite high barriers to entry, you know. Um, but yeah, no, I've got to be.

SPEAKER_03: 35:09

Hard to get into.

SPEAKER_01: 35:11

Definitely, yeah. Yeah, I do work with a few Japanese firms, and and the ones that have got it right are killing it, absolutely killing it. Yeah, but it isn't easy.

SPEAKER_03: 35:20

So apart from that, yeah, I think it's US.

SPEAKER_01: 35:23

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_03: 35:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:27

So um tell me about uh any sort of projects or or or wins or um or work that you've done that has highlighted the power of of working on a retained basis. You know, why why does it matter? Why does it make a difference to what happens?

SPEAKER_03: 35:54

I think the way that we apply it is there's a big difference between people if you've got a key role that you need to hire somebody into, there's a big difference um between hiring someone for that role who basically whoever happens to be looking at the time who's active versus the absolute best in class in the market. There's a big difference between those two options. In one, a search process has to be applied, which is the of course turning the heads of the best in the market. You can only do that by uh putting the time in up front, front loading the work, you know, doing the discovery work and everything else, and then essentially apply applying a deposit-led solution to it. Um the best in the market, sorry, the you know, whoever happen happens to be looking, it's just the time. I mean, how long do you wait for that? If there's a timeline, it's a strategic high strategic hire, and there's opportunity cost attached to not having someone in seat by a certain date or whatever it is, um, then it's a game of chance, you know. If you're just waiting for someone just to land in your inbox with, you know, a bit because it's out there with several people contingently that aren't really working the role actively, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 37:09

So it's hot marks.

SPEAKER_03: 37:12

Yeah, he's all right.

SPEAKER_01: 37:15

For for for though anyone considering um moving their retroct business to retain, wherever they might be, what advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_03: 37:27

I'd say look at your clients, you know, look, you know, look at your client base. I mean, you've got a I've always thought I you know, I I when I was at um S3 many years ago, um one thing I was really good at selling was a trial start. I don't even know if it's called that anymore. Uh I don't know if if that's a phrase that you used to use, but a trial start, which is basically selling in someone on a working interview, but getting someone in, you know, forget the interviews, we'll just send somebody down, you know, I'll come back to you later in the day, we'll discuss three profiles, we'll get someone down there in a working interview, and we'll you go you can assess how they are on the job versus how good they are at interview, and if you like them, just keep it rolling from there. And I was, I mean, this was 20 odd years ago when I used to sell then, but um, I've I believed in it. Uh, I believed in it in terms of I thought that it would be you know a good solution, but I believed in it because it was better for me. Um, you know, so so um but with the but so with the retained thing, first of all, you've got to believe in the fact that it's it's the right solution, not just what's best for you. You've got to sol you've got to believe in the fact that it's the best solution for your client. But then equally you should think, okay, you know, am I okay with refusing other work to focus on this? And is there going to be cost associated with that? So you need to obviously wear that up yourself uh and on whether or not aligned with the right sort of businesses. Um, so um I think what what you were saying before, a mix a mix is healthy. Um you know, going all in on retain, I think for any business, I think is uh regardless of sector, I think is a high risk strategy, to be honest. And you'll probably end up building less than what you're doing at the moment. Uh so you need to be very mindful of um of you know the mix being healthy and not refusing other work and only taking on what you can genuinely think you can, you know, um manage, and indeed, you know, you've got a really good chance of filling. Um you want to apply the I mean, there's no point in, I mean we talked about it before, if you've got candidates ready to go and you don't need to apply a search process, then don't do one, just get some good terms and bounce them in and get it done. You don't want to hook yourself up to this, you know, VCs all the time and all this kind of stuff if you don't need to. So I think it just depends, you know, on yeah, looking at your client base, looking at how much work realistically you could take on, you know, and would you be happy with only selling one solution, you know, if you were able to really embed yourself with one business and work a lot more closely and collaboratively. Um, but it doesn't work for everyone, so you just gotta make that decision on you know what clients you feel that you'd be able to best align yourself with and to to work on that sort of basis.

SPEAKER_01: 40:03

I love it. Um is there anything you you've touched on a few things and learnings and uh you know with hiring and then uh and uh uh pivoting uh not just location but the model of the business. Is there anything that you'd wish you wish you'd known earlier in your journey?

SPEAKER_03: 40:24

Yeah. Um yeah, I think um I think really looking at the values thing with regards to kind of like um you know, right, let's get our foundation right with regards to the kind of people and the why and get the you know, ask before before we hired Billy. Um I spent a lot of time um, you know, which it which is mad really when you think about it, but it was so important that I put so much time into the vision, you know, what someone was going to be joining. It's not just joining James Ward and we'll see how it goes. It was like there's a vision, there's a strategy, there's a go-to-market strategy, there's a there's values, you know, there's all and I had it all on a got it all on no, you know, we've got it all sort of prepared everywhere. And when you know when Billy joined me, it was like, Jesus Christ, I wasn't, I've never seen anything like this. And it's like a you know, it's a it's a really small business. So um I suppose getting that right earlier, maybe would would would, you know, if I'd have if I'd have got that clear when I was in the UK before I came to the US, that would have saved me a lot of time and aggregate and would probably would have been a bit further along now.

SPEAKER_01: 41:35

But then equally things happen at the right time, you know. Would you would you have been ready and receptive to that?

SPEAKER_03: 41:41

Probably not.

SPEAKER_01: 41:41

I mean I think I might have mentioned that it would be a good idea at that time, and I think um you had other things on your plate, yeah. So I'm a massive believer, yeah. I'm a massive believer that you know I asked you the question, so you know, it's a silly question, really, because what what we say what we know now really is what we should know now, and it and and there's loads of things that we could do with knowing now that we don't yet know, and in five years' time we're then gonna know them and go, fucking hell. I wish I knew that five years ago. You know, we've still got that, and the the journey hasn't finished, has it? Um so it's a not it's a not a great question for me to ask. Um I I think you you know your journey's happening, everybody's journey just happens in exactly the right way in the right time because that's what makes us who we are, and you've now learned those lessons and you know why that's important. And if you hadn't, you wouldn't know how important it was. And it's meant that you've embedded this foundation and culture that will be infinitely more valuable because you've done that and more important to the people you know that are there. And the important thing is that you've done it and you've learned, and and I love your your um, you know, your growth mindset. You're so receptive to learning, and I love that you're continuously improving and developing not just yourself and your business, but the environment for those around you and those that are on the journey with you. Um yeah, immensely impressed.

SPEAKER_03: 42:57

I appreciate that. Thanks very much. But yeah, it it's um I think you I think what you've what you've said there hits an L on the head, really. It's like you you I think you just got to go through some pain, you know, you've got to make some mistakes and for yourself. So I knew, you know, I knew about all I I kind of played around with some stuff before you know before I started hiring the you know the first uh couple of people. Like I say, it wasn't like you know, I hired 15 people and had to get rid of them all and had to re it wasn't that. I mean, I hired a one consultant, you know, one it wasn't a big deal, you know what I mean? But it was it was enough pain for me to and it was expensive enough for me to, you know, like okay, I need to really recover.

SPEAKER_01: 43:35

I really got to do this, yeah. Yeah, I mean we're recruiters, we're always looking for shortcuts, like, can I get away with not doing it? Maybe yeah, just do it. And and then you're like, oh fucking, I'm I'm gonna have to actually do it. I was exactly the same. I used to think values and vision, I'm like, what a load of bullshit. Who needs that? It's just a load of mumbo jumbo, it's a load of kind of corporate speak. And then I was the same. I realized that we were really lacking in, we didn't have a business plan. We didn't have like a solid like what's our 10-year, five year, three year, one year, what's our purpose, what's our value. It's like we don't need that, we just work really hard, and you know, good things will happen. And I realized that yeah, that was only gonna get me so far, and I had to do the same. I had to put an operating model in and put a business plan in and put and if I'd known that earlier, I'd like to think that okay, it would have taken me further quicker, but actually I wasn't really receptive to it because I did know that, like you at the back of my mind. I knew that that was the thing that people did. I just thought it was a load of bullets and I could get away with not doing it.

SPEAKER_03: 44:29

So well, I read, you know, what first what first got me on it was um I read a couple of books. I read um Principles by Ray Dalio, and I read uh No Rules Rules by Reed Hastings about the growth of Netflix and everything. And and both of those really like resonated with me with regards to values and you know, obviously and all that principles of business and all that kind of stuff. They really resonated with it. So I was I was already sort of on that road, but I hadn't sort of quite gone all in on it and uh really sort of worked on it. And like I say, a little, but then yeah, like I said, experienced a little bit of pain and it kind of like, right, okay, I haven't got any time to fuck about here. I need to really do this now before we spend any more money. So uh so yeah, I'm glad I did. But if anything, I'm glad I you know, I wish I would have done it sooner. But yeah, you know, someone else, someone else said to me as well, um I got asked a while ago, um, you know, what would you have done differently? And I think I you know, I probably would have came came out here with two or three people like already from the UK.

SPEAKER_01: 45:35

Um both the people you've hired, you mentioned before, uh uh British and yeah, it must be it's harder to find them when they're there than it would have been to bring them with you.

SPEAKER_03: 45:47

Yeah, it would that would have been easier. It would have been easier to again if we had the sort of the vision clear and you know and everything else, and would have had a couple of people in um if we'd had a couple of people in the UK, got them aligned, got them all sort, and then we came out here two or three handed, um, you know, we probably could have, you know, could have made an impact quicker. Yeah, but again, you know, it should have cut out.

SPEAKER_01: 46:11

It was should have cut. I was just gonna say that.

SPEAKER_03: 46:13

Yeah, it was, you know, I didn't. So, you know, that's that. But again, looking back, um, I think it's a good idea to try and I suppose any businesses that are gonna come to the US, there's always this sort of debate on whether or not you should hire people who are on the ground, who are sort of you know, and of course, you know, we help businesses do that, we hire you know presidents and all the rest of it. So uh it might sound counterintuitive in terms of what I'm saying, but I think coming out here with a team is uh you know, that maybe been working in the US for a little while and you know really bought into the company vision and all that kind of stuff is probably a good a good way to do it. A nucleus.

SPEAKER_01: 46:54

Well, you've got a sort of critical mass and you've got a bit of a nuclear earlier to build on and some momentum already with a yeah with a shared purpose that is you're not trying to attract something to people to very little. There's there's more there's more substance, isn't there?

SPEAKER_03: 47:11

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 47:12

So that's a good answer. Great answer. What's next for you, James?

SPEAKER_03: 47:17

What's next? Yeah, um, I touched on it earlier with regards to the market if we want to penetrate and go a bit further into. So um, yeah, I mean, we you know, we're on our journey now, really, in terms of sort of growth and whatnot. So, you know, we're interviewing somebody else at the moment, uh, or interviewing other people, should I say, at the moment. So um, the next person that we hire likely will be someone within life sciences or life sciences R2R, of course. Um, so you know, we're not gonna be the big thing with us is we're not gonna be the biggest firm in the world. But what I what I what I do want is to do our thing is more with less. So higher revenue per head, higher, you know, we want to hire you, you know, true A players, high performance culture, again underpinned with the right values. Um, and like on a per head basis, we want to be able to. I made an analogy recently, which sounds a bit cheesy, but it's almost like a race car, but you would dissect every bit of the race car and you make every little bit excellent. That's what we're looking to do. So we're dissecting every bit of our operating model and making it truly excellent. So uh we want to keep doing that and get to a point where, like I say, you know, our our revenue per head is um, you know, is is off the chart. So we want to build a business where basically everybody builds over a million dollars ahead. That's where we want to be, and we want everyone to you know financially gain out of it, and and um yeah, that's what we want. So so yeah, in terms of in terms of where we're going, you know, short term, you know, hire possibly one more person this year and um ideally four next year. But we're not gonna be the business, biggest business in the world. But you know, in terms of leveraging tech, in terms of making all our processes excellent, I want us to be pound for pound the best, but um, yeah, not necessarily the biggest. I don't I don't believe in growth for growth's sake. I just I prefer you know the right people because I think you can have a better culture and a better performance and a fundamentally a better time with a smaller group of the right people rather than a sea of average of people all doing different things.

SPEAKER_01: 49:17

I agree, I agree completely with everything that you've just said. It sounds awesome. James, you've been fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your journey and your vision and your purpose with us. I really, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03: 49:34

Oh, good stuff, thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01: 49:37

Well, that's another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our Wild Tales, LinkedIn controversies, and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrained search.com. And don't be shy, connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi. We don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently. And we have our search mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search the Podcast.