SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to Retained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way, and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Nice to have you here, Candice. Thanks for watching. Hello, everybody. Um, thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in. Uh, welcome to the Retained Search Show. I'm joined today by Candice Bourne. Um, she is a wonderful example of a unique Rectorac, and I'm really excited to talk to you about retained in the Rectorac market today. Um, but first, tell everybody a bit about who you are and your business, Candice, if you will, and what you do.

SPEAKER_01: 0:50

Yeah, of course. So Bourne Consulting is my business, um, purely as you mentioned in the Rector Ec, or I call search to search space. Um, established it 18 years ago now when I had my first child. Um, and basically, yeah, he's literally going to university this next week. So it's kind of grown with him, really, the business. So I wanted to I wanted to work in a firm where I could work remotely at the time, that wasn't a thing, 18 years ago. Um, previous to that, I worked for a large global contingent staffing firm, Adeco. Um, so I sort of started as a tenants consultant, worked my way up to becoming like an ops director there. So I was very like travelling around the country and into Europe and that kind of thing, which wasn't really for me conducive when I had children. So I set this business up more on a lifestyle type of basis 18 years ago. Um, in the recruitment to recruitment space, started as a I suppose a contingent recruiter, went back to being, you know, doing recruitment because I hadn't done that for a long time at Adeco. I was more into the management and sales training side of things. Um, and really, yeah, the business has gone from strength to strength and it's evolved over the last few years to being um a retained search to search business.

SPEAKER_00: 2:09

Yes, well, tell me about that. So I wanted to find out a bit about what drew you to that model. Um, and I want to talk about how it fits into the Rec to Rec or search to search space. So, first, um when we talk about search to search to search, who are you sort of serving then? Who are your clients and who and how are you serving them if you just put them across the case?

SPEAKER_01: 2:34

Yeah, most of my clients, my typical clients tend to be SME search boutiques. Okay. Um, rather than the global search firms. Um the the sort of smaller boutiques, the owner-run search businesses, um work, I work really well with because um I work closely with the owners, the CEOs of those businesses. Yeah, um, and they tend to want to partner um in the way that a search approach lends itself. Um whereas I find with some of the sort of more global businesses, they bizarrely don't tend to retain um as often. Even though they themselves are retained, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, most of my firms, um, some of them are global, but they're more, you know, boutique um businesses.

SPEAKER_00: 3:20

And what at what point were you drawn to the retained model and how did that change happen for you?

SPEAKER_01: 3:26

So my first few years of doing recruitment to recruitment, most of my clients were contingent recruitment firms because that's where I come from, that's where my network was. And then as a business progressed, I sort of focused more on search clients becoming my clients. And it was really through getting to know them and how they worked that I understood more about the whole search process. And some of those clients were good friends of mine or became good friends of mine. And you know, I spent a lot of time talking to them about the search approach, what that entailed, and it became really clear to me that you know, having a list as you know, long as my arm of vacancies in recruitment, because let's face it, everyone's hiring good recruiters. Um, and you know, trying to make I did pretty well at making contingent placements, but it was it didn't feel like I was giving the kind of service that I wanted to give. And I quickly understood through placing search partners in firms what they did and and the difference in that service and the quality of service was it's what I aspired to be doing, really.

SPEAKER_00: 4:31

Interesting. And how um how is it different, do you think, uh in Rack to Rack? Is it different?

SPEAKER_01: 4:39

Um I mean it's it's almost so different. It's like a different to me, it's a different industry, it's a different approach. It's it's um it's not a transactional, you know, that's the main difference, if I could maybe um articulate it in that way. It's much more about forming long-term partnerships where it's about the process involved, it's not just filling a job.

SPEAKER_00: 5:06

And do you think do you because a lot of people say to me, and I I I speak to quite a lot of Rectoracts, and they say, I can't see how it would work. I can't see how working retained would work in my sector, i.e., in the Rectorat space.

SPEAKER_01: 5:24

Some of my clients have said to me they think it's probably one of the hardest spaces to be retained in. And I I obviously, because it's all I've done, I uh I but obviously I know what my clients do. I I potentially they're right. It it's um ultimately it's very hard work with the candidates because it's all about being proactive, isn't it? And approaching them and um convincing them to talk to other search fans when they're in the market themselves, right? So it's a bit like a business holiday in a way. Um, but you have got to really, it's like anything when you're doing search, you've got to really understand what somebody's drivers are to be able to um encourage them to have a conversation, and that takes a lot of insight and ability to engage with people and gain their trust and build their relationships. Where transactional contingent rectorec is just not like that, it's much more, you know. Do you want a job that pays you a bit more? Or you know, it's it's it's not as in-depth at all, so it's it's so different.

SPEAKER_00: 6:30

Yeah, I think the objections I hear um from Rectorrex are that when I've I I leave with a candidate, basically, that's normally what they tell me, and that they'll work with the candidates rather than the clients. And so that if they've got a good candidate, there's no way that they're only going to send them to one client. That their whole business model is to give that candidate the choice of all the opportunities in the market rather than. I mean, of course, that makes perfect sense because if they're not actually being paid or commissioned to find somebody, then they don't have alliances with anyone. And actually, the fee is the candidate, not the client, really. Um, and and for me, that's always been more prevalent. Well, in two spaces, one is the Rector Ec space, and the other is the legal private practice for partners. I find that market very, very similar. In most businesses will make room for a good Fierna. You know, they don't necessarily have to even have a vacancy if someone comes along that is perfect and got the right experience and able to bring a book of business or a desk or whatever, then they'll make room for them. So they don't need to sort of or want to kind of put all their eggs in one basket. That's always the objection I'm going to do.

SPEAKER_01: 7:57

Yeah, the key difference is, and it's probably the same in the legal private practice market as well, but a really good candidate in search is never actively looking, right? So if you have a very good, you know, partner billing a lot of money in a search firm that's passively looking only and could only be interested passively, they're not going to want to speak to five different firms, six, seven, or whatever, however many different firms. You know, they're going to only be interested in having a conversation at a firm that's really going to make a difference to them.

SPEAKER_00: 8:30

Yeah, good, great answer. I love it. Um, and personally, I mean, I did some rhetoric in between various other bits and pieces. And um, as you know, because we've we've talked about it before, um, and I did it all on a retained basis. And so I know that it it lends itself beautifully, of course, to the retained model. And it's fine for those people that their business model is is leveraging candidates and is having the relationship with the candidate and giving them you know all of the different options, that's fine. But I've always worked really well in the same way as you have in partnership with the client that's looking for someone specific.

SPEAKER_01: 9:08

Sorry to interrupt you, but there's always a candidate. Maybe, you know, I've got had them in the past, like maybe an old client of mine that was actually thinking, I I want to I want to see what the market's got to offer, you know. Can you show me, you know, they don't just want to talk to one firm then, and then of course I would work with that particular individual in a different way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:27

But that's that's occasional, that's not my exactly. And it's not um actively working on positions for clients without any financial commitment, yeah, which is something else entirely, yeah. And I completely agree. And those two things tend to feed each other, don't they? Because you find people that want you to work proactively with them whilst you're looking for the people that you need for your client. Um what have you noticed about the market candies then? Um, in the types of recruiters and the types of people that your clients have been looking for in the last, you know, six, twelve months?

SPEAKER_01: 10:05

Um, I think that lot this year, well, probably since last September, yeah, exactly a year, the market in our world has been really tough. Um there's been a lot of retraction generally in the markets, particularly the UK-focused markets. Um so that whole area of you know delivery, associates, head of research type roles, I haven't really heard of many of those being proactively recruited for. I have been retained on those previously, but certainly not this year. Um, it's much more around focus on originators, um, people that can bring client relationships to the table. There's always going to be a need for those, but that's been much more prevalent than anything else this year. And that's cross-sector. Tech seems to be coming back, and I do think from this month, actually, fit everyone seems a lot more positive. So hopefully, we're moving into a much more active end of the year as well. But tech is definitely coming back, which has been really quiet for a good couple of years.

SPEAKER_00: 11:06

Do you see a need for um a more diverse skill set or background, um, origination of work in uh you know allied services like um mapping, pipelining, or uh leadership advisory and consulting services.

SPEAKER_01: 11:31

Yeah, I think a lot more firms are diversifying into those areas, interim as well. Um, a lot of firms are realizing that having different spokes to their wheel kind of thing is is gonna like really um recession proof them for future. So I think that would be a growth area for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 11:52

Are you enjoying this so far? Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories, and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it, or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff. Um, what do you think the recruiters are looking for when they're you you find a good originator, yeah. Uh especially for retained work, right? And I know this because people ask me for them all the bloody time. Um I've got a bit of a conflict of interest though, so I I can't um I can't always uh help. But when someone's looking for that profile, how can they make themselves attractive to that skill set? What do these people look for in their what's the destination employer for them?

SPEAKER_01: 13:01

It's quite a mixed bag because it does depend obviously on the individual and everyone is different in terms of what they want. But the generic themes that I come across are things like the brand actually has to be good. You know, if the brand may be unknown, which is fine, but if it's known and doesn't have a great reputation for things like attrition, then that that can be a non-starter to get people interested. So, you know, any search owner out there that's you know struggling to find partners, if if there is stuff, say on Glassdoor or just generally in the market that needs to be addressed, and I would urge them to look at those things and and be prepared to be proactive in this narrative that they articulate to the market on maybe what historical context around negative feedback. But yeah, branding is really important and client network and client, you know, the perception um that company has within their client base and and who they're working with as well. Um, you know, if if companies are happy for me to share some marquee clients, that always helps encourage people to have conversations.

SPEAKER_00: 14:11

Where do the best originators in business development strengths come from? Do you think? Where do you see the best people coming from? Is there a trend or a hotspot?

SPEAKER_01: 14:26

I think people as a generic kind of thing, again, because there's always big exceptions to any rule, but you know, people that have sometimes come from, say, a contingent background into a boutique search firm tend to be able to cope with going and setting a cold desk up somewhere. People coming from a Shrek, um, own only a Shrek that have come up through research tend to have less exposure really to business development. Doesn't mean they can't do it, but they're not, they won't be as trained and they won't even maybe always be aware of how much they rely on that brand.

SPEAKER_00: 15:02

Yeah, I've experienced that so many times. Um have you had any standout successes?

SPEAKER_01: 15:11

Yeah, I mean, over the years, quite a few, um I guess.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

In fact, um, tell me about where the retained model has produced a result that maybe wouldn't have otherwise been produced.

SPEAKER_01: 15:28

So, I mean, a couple that spring to mind, funnily enough, both international ones, um, because they were like brand new markets that we were retained on. One was um to find a head of financial services um in the Middle East in um UAE, which we successfully did, and that was on a retained mandate that we had with a business who were doing a lot of work on a rolling kind of retainer basis. Um, we successfully found that person. We hadn't done a search there in a long time, so it was a proper start from scratch. Um, and he's been there you know a good few months now and really successful. Um, another one, actually, a bit of an older one, but we were retained to find it, it was a search consultant for a CFO practice for boutique search firm. We found him, and he's been in the company a few years now, three or four years, and he's now gone on to open their New York office um for this search firm, and he's doing so well there. So it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 16:27

A much longer tenure and a better fit, don't you, as well, when you're hand picking and carefully hunting for the right bit. Um if you had to predict what was going to happen to the Rec-to-Rec market over the next few years, what do you see? What changes do you see on the horizon?

SPEAKER_01: 16:48

Um, I haven't seen huge change for a long time, really, which is quite interesting. Um I haven't felt much innovation either out there. But then to be honest with you, I don't, I'm not tracking my competitors, I'm obviously not supplying my competitors. So um that's probably a bit of a generic statement as well, because I'm sure there are um parts to that. I mean, there's businesses that seem to be doing incredibly well that are focused in the US and doing most of their work there. Um, I'm thinking 15 West for one. Um, so I think that market is still growing hugely, and I think that's that's probably and and I mentioned the Middle East, you know, the the growth um in Saudi. I think you know, recruiters will really benefit from focusing globally going forward. So I think I can see some big changes there.

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

Um you see a lot of uh candidates, you see a lot of us, a lot of recruiters, you talk to a lot of recruiters, and you also um talk to those that are looking for the best ones. What um advice would you give to those that are considering a move? Um and specifically from a contingent with a contingent background into a retained future.

SPEAKER_01: 18:18

Okay, so a consultant that's in a contingent fan that wants to get into search. Yeah, um, I think the biggest thing I would encourage them to do is really understand and speak to people in search to understand what what why it's different, what it looks like, to recognise that they might need to initially take a little bit of a step backwards or perceive to be backwards, but it isn't really because they'll still be learning a lot. Because the delivery side of search, there's so much more to it compared to contingent, and they need to really hone their skills on that in order to be able to sell it, I think, effectively. Personally, that's my best for myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:00

Couldn't have possibly better than myself. And when it comes to the other side, then what advice would you give to those firms that are looking to make hires? Obviously, in this market, everyone is making very if they're making hires, they're making them very carefully. And we're not hiring en masse like we were a few years ago and hoping that some some of it works out. Um, and mainly people who can bring value very quickly. So, what advice would you give to those those people? What are your top tips for them?

SPEAKER_01: 19:37

So, I always advise my clients when I'm working with them that because of our approach, when we introduce people to them, these people aren't necessarily actively looking. So, they are the initial conversation I always recommend is very much uh almost an informal getting to know you chat. And it's all about building that understanding, that rapport, that relationship, and going into it relatively patiently because you know, as much as clients aren't in a rush to hire, a lot of candidates are very cautious, understandably, in this market. So going into it with a bit of a longer term vision, um, it may not take that long, you know, if the connection is there and all the boxes are ticked on both sides, and that's obviously what where we come in to help make sure that happens. But but yeah, not to not to rush things, um to take time accordingly to go at the right pace of the candidate, really.

SPEAKER_00: 20:34

Um excellent advice, excellent advice, very good, very wise words. What um what else would you like to share? Is there anything that you want to share with our audience that you think is helpful um or that we've missed and haven't talked about today?

SPEAKER_01: 20:52

Um I think probably the main thing I want to share is the fact that I've launched a podcast myself. Um actually today um our first recording goes out, so where are we the second week of September? Um yeah, so I'm congratulations. Thank you. I'm very excited about it, slightly nervous. Um, but um, it's all good experience being a guest on one as well. So thank you for that. But it's called The Journey of a Search CEO. Um, and I basically got the idea to do this podcast from one of my candidates um who does his own podcast series and was telling me how it's really changed his whole mindset on his business and his, you know, the ability to network. And and also for me, I quite like, because I've been doing this quite a long time, um, giving something back to people a little bit, you know, just creating content that's actually meaningful and um educating people. So, you know, you mentioned about people making that transition from contingent to search. There is a bit of a mystique around search, and I love the idea of being able to help demystify that. Um, so this podcast series is me interviewing search owners and founders and CEOs. And so far I've done about 10 interviews, I think, um, ranging from the global CEO Um Larry Hartman of ZRG to the founder and CEO of Society, which goes out to date actually, so a purpose-led search firm. So a whole range. Um, I'm trying to get lots of women on there, you know, promoting um leadership, senior leaders, female leadership as well. Um, and and really it's so interesting, actually. The ones I've done, as I said, I've done about 10 or so, but some themes are coming up, like the same themes are coming up in all of the conversations, you know, the future of search, the impact of AI, um, the role of a researcher, how that's going to evolve. And it's just really interesting to hear all their different individual stories. And, you know, everyone, everyone's got into search in different ways. Um, and I kind of just want people to realise that you can be a founder, a CEO of a search firm if you want, you know, like Larry started ZRG from scratch, it can be done. And I really hope it inspires people.

SPEAKER_00: 23:11

Good, good, lovely. And um, I know that we'll promote it with you too, and we'll share, of course, this one. Um, and I know that some of our we've got some guests in common. Uh Lucy, you mentioned Lucy Robinson, who we adore, um, and has there's so much to be learned from her and all the others, of course. So, congratulations. I know how nerve-wracking it is to begin with. Me and Jordan were terrified when we first started ours. I don't know what it was like listening to yourself for the first time.

SPEAKER_01: 23:39

It's great for this.

SPEAKER_00: 23:41

I know, I know what that's like. Um, Candice, I can't thank you enough. You've given such wide wise words to our audience today. Thank you so much for joining me, and we're looking forward to sharing the journey with you. And good luck with the podcast, and we'll see you soon.

SPEAKER_01: 23:58

Thanks, Louise. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00: 24:00

My pleasure, thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 24:02

Bye.

SPEAKER_00: 24:04

Well, that's another episode of Retrain Search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies, and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrained search.com. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi. We don't bite unless you're a Shrek firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundation's program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently. And we have our search mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search the Podcast.