Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Okay, everyone, hello and welcome to the Retain Search show, and we're very excited today to be joined by a guy that's always on the other side of the mic and put him in the hot seat, and that is the very famous, the very wonderful Ben Mina. Nice to have you here, ben Welcome.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Excited to be here with you guys, and it is kind of funny being on the other side where I'm like oh crap, now I have to answer all the questions. I have to be ready.

Speaker 1: 0:56

Yeah, you do, and you've just experienced our not very structured, not very organized setup.

Speaker 3: 1:02

Yours is super structured and ours is not. I don't know when I have to stop saying we're very new to this podcasting. I've been doing it for a year and a half now.

Speaker 2: 1:08

I mean, if you guys want a good laugh, I tell people constantly I'm like I have no clue what I'm doing behind the scenes. It just all happens.

Speaker 1: 1:15

I'm glad it's not just us, but you do sound very crisp and much more like Luther, as Jordan just said.

Speaker 3: 1:23

I call Ben the Luther Vandross of the podcast game.

Speaker 2: 1:28

I mean, it's one of those things like when people think of like I'm going to go do a podcast, they like go out and buy like a $3,000 camera, a $400 mic, this and stuff, and like this is like a $70 mic that I've had for and actually I think it's down to like 50 bucks on Amazon now, so like you don't have to go with a crazy equipment to have a podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:53

You just have the conversation hit record and let's go. Good Cause, that's exactly what we do. I'm glad that you've just said that. Um, but, Ben, like we've spoken loads of times, we've done bits and pieces together, We've talked on a podcast together, but I don't know hardly anything about you, about your business and about what you actually do. Please will you tell us and everyone else what does your business focus on and what do you do?

Speaker 2: 2:16

So it's kind of funny. A lot of people, because podcasts is so visible, they're like aren't you a professional podcaster? And I'm like, no podcast doesn't pay the bills. Podcast doesn't even come close to paying a bill. That's why I have the recruiting to actually pay the bills. So I'm a you know I've been recruiting for I am right now on 19 years in the recruiting seat. Combination of I started off.

Speaker 1: 2:39

You don't look old enough, if you don't mind me saying.

Speaker 2: 2:41

I'll take that, thank you, thank you. But I started off as one of those agency. One of those large agencies were in the US. They get you right out of college, put you in the training, you go and grind away and you hit the top of the charts and you realize you're still not making any money whatsoever. So from there I went internal for quite a few years. I really focused on the government contracting world and for everybody I don't know if you guys have like GovCon over in the UK, but government we focus a lot of on Department of Defense and all the different federal agencies around the US federal government.

Speaker 2: 3:17

So fast forward a bunch of years internal about 2018, I think it was maybe 2017. I can't even remember. I'd have to go back and look at uh, uh LinkedIn. But I, for years of grinding, never took a vacation for I think about two years, just absolutely like head down, working hard, super hard. And I was on my first trip to overseas, to France, and I got a call while I was overseas and they're like hey, ben, we're gonna have to let you go.

Speaker 2: 3:49

I know and they're like well, we need you to bring your laptop back. And I'm like, well, my laptop is with me here in France. Right, well, you need to ship it right now. I'm like, are you guys gonna pay for it? And they're like no. But so, like the phone call went a little farther and was just like hey, hey, you actually did nothing wrong. We actually you're our best recruiter, but we have to let you go because we have to make a, a foreign government happy and they needed some collateral damage.

Speaker 1: 4:16

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2: 4:17

So it was a bunch of stuff that I actually told the team was actually going to happen. And they're like, no, don't worry about it. And I'm like, well, this is going to happen. And it like, no, don't worry about it. And I'm like, well, this is going to happen. And it did happen. And it got flagged. It became like a little bit of a upper agency international story, like not a story, but like foreign governments were pissed off. And I'm like this is exactly what I said was going to happen. It did happen. So can you?

Speaker 1: 4:43

tell us what it was that happened?

Speaker 2: 4:46

No, not on a recording not on a recording, but it was just like they like, hey, you're just your collateral damage and we have to take you out, wow. So my wife looked at me like we're, we're in Bordeaux, france. At the time I was like, well, let me go get a, we need to go get a glass of wine, france. At the time I was like, well, let me go get a, we need to go get a glass of wine, yeah, yeah, as one would do in bordeaux, france. And she's just like, hey, we've been talking about doing it let's go do it yeah let's go start our own recruiting company.

Speaker 3: 5:21

Oh my god. So you know amazing, what a story. So that's the question, that's on everyone's mind.

Speaker 2: 5:24

But what's that? What did you do with the laptop? So funny part is like I actually had to have a coworker drop it off. So once I got back to the States, a coworker had to drop it off, because anytime in a lot of these like government agencies, if they get rid of you, you can't actually walk into the building. I'm like whatever, here you go.

Speaker 3: 5:46

Here's a laptop you can have it back.

Speaker 2: 5:46

I downloaded all the all my resumes on there, put them into an ats, yeah yeah, of course, yeah, of course, wow, and so that's how it started that is how it started and you know, like we, we primarily focus on the government contracting space, like we do stuff outside of government contracting, but a good majority of like since 2018 or whatever it is, is government contracting. And for those that don't know what government contracting is like, here's like the easy 60 second explanation. Have you ever heard of a company called Amazon?

Speaker 3: 6:17

Yeah. I go three times a day, but I get an eye roll. I get an eye roll.

Speaker 2: 6:24

And then I'm like have you ever heard of a company called Microsoft? And by then you can literally just hear somebody you can hear on a phone their eye roll. And I'm like, did you know that both of those companies are large-scale government contractors too? Some people say yes, other people say no, and I'm like, that's picture this. The United States government, the Pentagon, asked for some help to move the joint warfighter effort, the F-35 program, over to the cloud. So Amazon with AWS and Microsoft with Azure said Mr Government, we are here to help you out, we can help you do this for $9 billion. Heck yeah. So it ended up like both those companies won. So every single one of those Amazon employees working on that program, they're full-time Amazon employees, but they're actually government contractors too because they're supporting a government mission. Same thing for Microsoft.

Speaker 2: 7:09

So the government contracting world is so big and there's so many different things that happen in it, so we primarily focus on that space, mostly around the DC Metro. We've done a lot of work with the three-letter agencies, the CIA, the NSA and like all the different intelligence agencies. Also, we shifted a little more towards like the federal agencies, so we don't have to go chasing those super purple unicorns with full scope polygraphs to go do scary things that I can't tell them what they do. They don't know, like you know, I can't. The job description is like software engineer. And then you're like, okay, you're working at the NRO, I have a good idea what you're doing, but I I'm not allowed to know. But I have to go find you and I can't even tell you where you're working.

Speaker 3: 7:54

Makes it difficult to take a brief, I suppose.

Speaker 2: 7:58

So it's. It's one of those things like you have to like like understand the conversation and many times there's like a a non-classified uh you know like request for work from the government. So you gotta like look at that and get a good understanding of, like what they're actually trying to chase, or the supposed mission of the work, and piece that together to go find the person, perfect person that's difficult it's difficult and fun and um.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Where are you based, ben? Where are you based now?

Speaker 2: 8:31

we're based in richmond virginia, which is like right outside of the dc metro. Uh, anybody in richmond virginia will tell you that they're not part of northern virginia. I, I say it's part of northern virginia since there's so many people that moved down here during covid, but we've prior to that, we we were about eight years in Arlington, virginia, and prior to that, tampa Florida.

Speaker 3: 8:51

My mom and dad have just come back from two weeks in Richmond, virginia. Really yeah, small world. My dad's best friend from school went to America to study American studies at college just because it meant he could go to America, and then met an American girl, ended up restudying and doing law, became head lawyer for Disney and now has a ranch in Virginia. So they went to spend a couple of weeks with him. I know, there you go, small world.

Speaker 1: 9:16

Small world Very good, and I've got to ask you, ben, while it's on my mind, I've just come off a call from a person asking me the same question. There's so much mixed activity at the moment in the market, like how are things from your perspective at the moment?

Speaker 2: 9:35

So am I allowed to say that I think a lot of people were super excited going into 2025? Like the market was really excited. There was a lot of work happening. It right now is a market that I am seeing certain sectors winning. I see certain sectors that are dealing with a little bit of a slowdown. I see certain sectors, like the sector that we primarily play with right now.

Speaker 2: 10:01

We're dealing with a thing called DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency. So what they're doing is looking at all the contracts and because of all the contract analysis and what they're doing and how they're viewing the contracts and what might be cut all of a sudden, a lot of companies are afraid to spend money on recruiting support. But at the same time, I also know that in my little bubble, everything's going to pick back up towards the end of the year because they are going to realize that the work still needs to get done. But back to what you were saying I think it really depends on where in the market you are as a recruiter, what niche you're looking at as a recruiter. But the one thing I can absolutely say for sure and it's really because of the podcast, and I live in a bubble because of the podcast, every single niche, including mine. There are recruiters out there absolutely crushing it still, no matter what the market conditions are.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Yeah, I agree, and tell us a bit about that podcast journey for you Because, as we said at the start, those of you that don't know and there'll be an audience, I think, on side of the pond that that don't know you as well as those, um on your side your journey from then starting something completely new, from fresh, to now being known more for your podcast than probably anything else, can you you tell us about that? How has that happened and why?

Speaker 2: 11:26

for you why I I'll be honest with you. Like I was bored during COVID and I wanted to talk to my recruiting friends and I was like, let's, let's do, like, let's do a podcast. And so I started a podcast to kind of chat with my recruiting friends. And four years later this is where it's at.

Speaker 1: 11:46

And where is it at now, Like for those of you that don't you know, those people that don't know you, where is it at?

Speaker 2: 11:53

So right now, like I don't know what recruiting numbers look like for podcast episodes, but I would say about 85% of the downloads are US based. Uk typically averages about 3% of my podcast downloads. Last year it was about 170,000 downloads on Apple and Spotify.

Speaker 3: 12:11

That's good, thank you.

Speaker 2: 12:16

I don't know what's good. I just keep on having fun and sharing stories. What it really is is just getting down to the human behind the recruiter and figuring out where they've struggled, how they've the recruiter, and figuring out, like, where they've struggled, how they struggled, how they succeeded, what they've done like, how they structure, like their success and and it's really just it's. It's the human element, the story, and with that story of their like, their success, a little bit of teaching behind the scenes so nice?

Speaker 1: 12:44

yeah, I love it. What do you see? You must see so much. You know, going through that process of getting kind of putting someone in a seat for an hour and asking them all those questions. You must see so many patterns and trends and what stands out for you so like are you looking at overall or what's working in 2025? Whatever you think is interesting and helpful to share.

Speaker 2: 13:09

My favorite stuff is just like it's always the stories of where somebody had a struggle, figured something out and it clicked, or, in reality, behind the scenes, it's the work ethic they put in consistently over time and came out the other side like a good example is a randy stat. He 200k in debt, multiple loans. His wife just quit his job because they had a brand new baby, brand new house. He had 500 left in his bank account. Finally just said I need help. I don't know what I'm doing. I have this recruiting business Ended up getting a coach. Listen to what the coach said. Keyword there Did the work. Another key thing when you have a coach, you actually have to do some work behind the scenes too. But finished the year at $800,000.

Speaker 2: 14:06

Wow, have a coach, you do actually have to do some work behind the scenes too, but finished here at eight hundred thousand dollars, wow. Or I just got a head episode drop today and we did a uh, literally like a full breakdown and analysis of how this recruiter had his best. Like he said plenty of like 200k months, plenty of 250k months, but he finally like broke through that 300k barrier for himself, solo biller. So like we actually did a, sat down and like we tore apart his month like tore apart his phone time, tore apart his kpis, tore apart his deals, tore apart all that stuff. And you know, just to like really just try to figure out like what maybe you can learn from that person that like hey, take this little piece and add it to your desk. To maybe take that little piece and add it to the desk. Like that's what every single one of these podcast stories are. It's either a combination of encouragement or you know what, maybe that one little piece of information can change a recruiter's desk or change a recruiter's life.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Cause.

Speaker 2: 15:01

I remember like if you want a good laugh, but my, my first agency job, they almost fired me two, three months in.

Speaker 1: 15:09

What did you?

Speaker 2: 15:09

do. I couldn't close a deal, so I got pulled into an office and the manager that pulled me in sat me down and was just like nobody wants to work with you, you just suck at recruiting oh and he's like environment oh yeah, it's so horrible, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 15:39

and he's like the only reason why we haven't fired you is because you hit every single metric. We tell you to do so like the problem was like. You know, I was a college athlete. You tell me to go like I was a runner. Hey, you need to go run 10 miles. If your training schedule says go run 10 miles at like a 615 pace, I'll go run 10 miles at a 615 pace.

Speaker 2: 16:03

Or you need to go do like. You know I hit 100 mile a week. Well, if my training schedule does that, that's what I needed to go do. So, like in the recruiting chair, they said go make 75 calls, so I'd go make 85. Then I'd track it at the end of the day and I'm like I did my 85 calls, Like I don't know what's happening, Like why isn't it not working for me. So after that call I actually went home, probably drank about two bottles of wine.

Speaker 2: 16:30

Um, not the good stuff yeah, there's a theme there, there's a thing there. Probably it's definitely not the good stuff it was. It wasn't, it wasn't a bordeaux, it was, uh, when I couldn't afford anything else other than yellowtail, and I don't think they still sell that anymore. Um, and I just like I was like this sucks, like I don't think they still saw that anymore. And I just like I was like this sucks, like I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2: 16:46

And the crazy part, at that time too, like I didn't even have a car. So like my car was actually sitting in the parking lot of the recruiting agency because it was broken and I didn't have the money to fix it. So like I just took the, I'd walk a mile to the bus stop. I, I would like take the bus to work. I'd get there before everybody else. So that way, nobody knew I didn't have a car. I'd leave after everybody else. So that way, nobody knew I didn't have a car. And then I, I every time like someone would be like, oh yeah, how about you drive for lunch? And I'm like, ah, not today or something like that, no way, but the next day. So it must have been so every Wednesday.

Speaker 2: 17:31

That large staffing agency actually shot out the top 10 people of every single industry the list. So I actually during that lunchtime I started calling down the list. I was like, hey, you're at number one. Do you mind if you give me 15 minutes after hours? I'd love to chat with you about what you're doing. Then I'd go to the next person. Hey, do you mind if you give me 15 minutes after hours? I'd love to chat with you about what you're doing. Then I'd go to the next person. Hey, do you mind if you give me some time next week during lunch? I'd love to kind of find out what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 17:55

I just sat there and did that down the list and then there was top billers in the office hey, do you mind if I take you out to lunch? And of course they drove their car. I was like, yeah, your car's a little nicer, like I'll buy a watch. But I started to like you know, there was no one magic bullet that I learned. It was the every single conversation that I took. I started I'm like, well, that's not me. How can I take a little like, how can I at least like imitate that? Now, I can't duplicate you because I'm not you, but how can I imitate that and make it me.

Speaker 2: 18:36

And you know, put in the work ethic too, like you know, finally got a car, another car, you know, just to pay some bills and catch back up. I was delivering pizzas 40 hours a week on top of 60, 70 hours a week recruiting. But I just knew that if I keep on putting in the work and I keep on trying to shift some stuff, I'll be able to make it Fast forward. Probably a year down I was on the top of the boards, had some fun, but then I was just like I just wanted to be a recruiter and so I ended up and they were trying to beat me into becoming an account manager or moving across the country.

Speaker 2: 19:16

I'm like, no, I'm happy here. I'm focused on government contracting. I actually started I was also my account manager started getting annoyed with me because I started after hours reaching out to all the other account managers in government contracting and working on their positions after hours. So that way I was just like I'm building my book of business in the government contracting space because I know that this is where I plan on being for the rest of my career.

Speaker 3: 19:42

I saw an interesting Alex Hamosi quote last week and he said you can beat 99% of people just by working hard, without the need for immediate reward.

Speaker 2: 19:52

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that why so many recruiting agencies? At least these big recruiting firms really go try to find these college athletes, cause they're like, they're young, not all of them are smart, but they know how to put in the work and they know how to like. Like, hey, here's the metrics. All right, cool, let's go. Let's go hit those numbers yeah, I remember my um.

Speaker 3: 20:18

I started in my working in my first contingent recruitment business after a few years out of university and a friend of mine had gone straight into the military out of out of college and he was coming out of the military and he said I don't suppose there's any jobs at the firm where you work is. And I said well, I'm sure there is. They're always hiring. Let me go and speak to someone and all of a sudden I realized that he'd been rejected and not given an interview. So I went to speak to the managing director and said why are you not even interviewing him? He said the problem with with military personnel is that like they just do what they're told. So like if there's a pile of rubbish on the floor, like and someone says, can you pick that up, we'll pick it up, but if not, they just wouldn't. And I'm like that is the perfect, the perfect delivery consultant. Like you just wind him up and tell him what to do and he will just do it to like 150 who was that?

Speaker 1: 21:10

who was that?

Speaker 3: 21:11

who was the person? You can't probably?

Speaker 1: 21:12

can't tell me yeah oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:14

No, I can't, it's um. I was on the stag do with him last week um oh yeah, it wasn't one. I knew no, no, okay, I was a good friend of mine and he is now absolutely smashing it is he?

Speaker 2: 21:26

yeah, I mean, I mean, that's like one of the crazy things about recruiting is like, no matter your background, whether you're an introvert, whether you're an extrovert, whether you're ADHD, whether you're really good with processes and following everything, there are ways for you to win. There are ways for you to crush it. There are ways for you to figure out how you can win in this field.

Speaker 1: 21:49

That's such a good point. I love that. I love that. Well, do you wish you'd known then, that you know now?

Speaker 2: 22:00

My biggest regret and this will probably lead into something I'm probably going to be I'm doing a podcast interview next week, really just talking about this, about the inner dialogue that you have for yourself. So my biggest regret back then is not saying yes to sales training.

Speaker 1: 22:23

Why wouldn't you say yes to sales training?

Speaker 2: 22:26

I enjoy the recruiting chair so much. I actually love the recruiting chair and the way that this large staffing agency is set up is. Everybody starts off as a recruiter, so you're not chasing any new work. You're not sitting there cold calling into the businesses. Your job is to get the job from your account manager and source and attack. Get the job from your account manager and source and attack.

Speaker 2: 22:51

I was still actually opening up business, but it was just because I'd be on the phone and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, cool, do you guys need some help over here? Cool, yeah, let me get a contract over and we'll start staffing you up. But it wasn't like me being forced to have to do it. I can tell you why I left in a bit. It's because something happened around there. But I truly think avoiding any sales training cost me a ton of money when I started my business. Because, like, sales is recruiting and sales should be the same muscle. But many recruiters because of probably the way that you know most recruiters in the US, recruiting and sales should be the same muscle. But many recruiters because of probably the way that most recruiters in the US don't start off as a 360 desk.

Speaker 1: 23:35

They don't did you say?

Speaker 2: 23:37

They don't.

Speaker 1: 23:39

Interesting. It's funny because in the UK we do Most of us start as 360.

Speaker 2: 23:43

Which is why I think there's a reason why so many UK recruiters, when they make it across the pond, they just absolutely destroy it. Yeah, they do. I think that goes into the fundamental trainings of the entry of a recruiter over there versus a recruiter here in the US. Wow, because in the US many times if you're a 360 recruiter, you become a big biller. You decide to walk away. There could be 70% of the company's revenue. You become a big biller, you decide to walk away there could be 70% of the company's revenue.

Speaker 3: 24:11

If you're thinking back to when I started, I don't think I was ever taught how to recruit.

Speaker 1: 24:15

We're only taught how to sell.

Speaker 3: 24:17

We're only taught how to sell, and then you'll just figure the rest of it out.

Speaker 1: 24:20

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 24:22

Yeah. So I said no to the sales training. I said no to account management because I love the recruiting chair so much. So once I actually started off on my own, I had to start learning that sales development muscle, and it's a muscle that I still have to work on. Luckily, a lot of the stuff a combination of podcast content and people that know me. Luckily, a lot of the stuff combination of like podcast content and people that know me. We have a lot of like inbound work that comes to us. But you know, when stuff slows down I'm like oh yeah, what's that muscle? Again I feel like I need to like I haven't gone for a run in the last few months and now I'm going to have to go do a quick half marathon.

Speaker 1: 25:04

Yeah, that's such a good analogy. All right, interesting.

Speaker 2: 25:11

My biggest regret is not saying yes to the sales training. But what they wanted me to do with the sales training is they were actually trying to move me across the country and I'm like no, no, no, no, no. I chose this job because I wanted to be in this location. The next place I'm going to be, I will choose where I'm going to go. So I was very location. I was trying to drive my career that I would end up into the DC Metro within a decade.

Speaker 1: 25:44

And when you say and it's interesting what you say there about a lot of your work being inbound. And when you say it's interesting what you say there about a lot of your work being inbound, you attributed that then to your podcast people that you know, so your podcast does help drive a little bit like it does so.

Speaker 2: 26:00

It's one of those things. I think it's the big like recruiters don't make content like they really don't and it's a mistake a lot of recruiters make. In the DC Metro there's 24,000 recruiters combination agency, in-house, their own firms there's 24,000 recruiters. I'm probably one of 10 that shows up online every single day and most of it is because of the podcast. I put together LinkedIn articles and I talk about other stuff, so it's I'm way more visible than all the other recruiters without doing it on purpose, but because of that, when somebody actually like, hey, we need some help, they're like oh, I see that. I see that guy named Benjamin. He's online all the freaking time. Every time I'm on LinkedIn, he shows up in my feed.

Speaker 2: 26:50

Sounds like us, let's maybe reach out to him and have a chat.

Speaker 1: 26:55

Yeah, we have the same experience. What did Jordan say to me? No, it wasn't you, it was a guy.

Speaker 3: 27:03

I Customers say to me all the time like yeah, I see Lou more than my wife. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, and I'm like yeah, sorry about that.

Speaker 1: 27:12

Oh my God, it's so bad, but it works.

Speaker 2: 27:16

Like you say, like it works, just because people see you means they've got, they feel like you're familiar and they feel like you know, they gravitate towards you as a um and so and we just had like I had a call last week that with a company that we like, we didn't like what they did for their projects and how they bit them, but like what they actually told me. I was like I've seen you, I've seen your podcast, I went and read a bunch of your articles, I went and check this out and like I know what you're doing. Okay, cool, let's chat.

Speaker 1: 27:47

Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. And there are more people realizing that, I think, now. But, like you say, it's still a minority in the recruitment industry.

Speaker 2: 27:59

I think I mean the problem is LinkedIn has changed. I'm one of the old dogs. I think it was about two years ago. I'm like, ah, I might as well suck it up buttercup and change the times. I think it was like two, like about two years ago. I'm like, ah, I might as well suck it up buttercup and change the times, but I'm like the amount of money recruiters have spent on LinkedIn, like we're the ones that have built the stupid platform, like it should be catered to us. Like why? Like get off my lawn guys, you content creator people.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Yeah, that's hilarious, that's so true. Um, what's next for you, ben? What's the future for you and your business?

Speaker 2: 28:44

So, with everything happening with Doge, we're actually looking at kind of like maybe pivoting a little out of the area just until things pick back up, but also, you're going to love this Going higher up the food chain when it comes to deals.

Speaker 1: 28:54

I do love that. What's the plan?

Speaker 2: 28:58

So we have, of course, a lot of inbound stuff coming at us and with Doge, I think the challenge is trying to figure out what we can actually do and where we can go with it. But it's just like I talked to enough top billers.

Speaker 1: 29:17

There's a secret when it comes to top billing Deal volume, deal size, I completely agree.

Speaker 2: 29:25

And there's many times the same amount of work that can happen for a small deal versus a big deal.

Speaker 3: 29:30

I would actually argue, often it's more work for the small deal than the big deal?

Speaker 1: 29:33

Yes, I agree, and there are some big, big deals around still, even though you know we've seen some massive One of our members, ben, just placed his biggest fee ever 750,000 USD. Wow love that in one placement I absolutely love that it's fucking great, isn't it? I love it. I mean, we're lucky. We've got a couple, probably two or three, maybe four in the group that are 500k, you know, average sort of deal size, which is great, you know, and they're good. They're really really good and they are really good.

Speaker 3: 30:09

But you know what the best thing is lou, they're just like they're normal people, yeah but I could never do what they can do, like they're really, really good and they're so nice and actually, underneath it all, you're right, it isn't.

Speaker 1: 30:25

It isn't rocket science. We don't need to go and get a degree in anything to be able to do it. We can. With the right listening and learning, and and and applying and consistency and diligence and hard work. We can. With the right listening and learning, and and and applying and consistency and diligence and hard work, we can do it as well, and that's what I love about it the most I mean, it's one of those things like you sit there and talk to these big builders and it's like, oh, that's mindset, mindset, mindset.

Speaker 2: 30:44

But nobody actually explains what the f mindset actually means, but it. But like you've got it. I think it took me about a year of having like these interviews and my mind's constantly blown with some of these interviews. I got an episode coming up where a solo girl herself runs a $10 million staffing desk.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Wow. So maybe could you ask them what does mindset mean? Can you do this in your podcast?

Speaker 2: 31:12

I've started asking it. But one of the things I started realizing is one of the things mindset is is just how you look at your business, how you look at your desk. Many of us, when we got into recruiting, we were given like this is what your desk is going to be. We could do that, but what if we expand in another place? You know how many directions and pivots were all just started from a conversation. You're like why can't I call that person, yes, why can't I do that? And you never know where a conversation can take your entire life. You never know where a placement can completely change. I joke around and I keep on talking about building a 30-day challenge. You're one placement away from changing your life.

Speaker 1: 31:54

Yeah, yeah, I agree, and you know I work with so many people that are a bit scared of you know that level, whatever that level is. In fact, I've just had a call with Kelly she won't mind me saying that six months ago, when I first started working with her, when I said okay, so here's the plan, this is what we're going to do, these are the we're going to identify these targets. This is how we're going to target them, this is what we're going to say this and she she came up to me after a week and went I just can't do it, I can't, I can't do it, I just don't know what to say to these people. And I broke it down and we sort of changed the approach slightly. And I've just met up with her and she said I've won four projects with those people and now they're.

Speaker 1: 32:31

I've been out for lunch with them. They're only humans. Why was I so scared? And she's like I am absolutely away with this now. I can't believe I was so frightened of it before. Like you say, it's just sometimes just one little change of approach or tactic that you hear from someone that can totally change. So why shouldn't you know we be operating at the highest possible level that we're capable of operating at to make life as easy and as rewarding as we can and and we, when we talk about mindset, mindset.

Speaker 3: 32:57

She just had that mindset shift yeah, and that made all the difference yeah, it did, yeah it did I often say the best thing that ever happened to me is playing golf when I was a kid, because I was like a 13, 14 year old boy that had to go and play golf at the club at the weekend with business owners, business leaders that were 40, 50 and you've got four and a half hours and you've got to speak to them. You very, you very quickly realize just normal people you're just normal people.

Speaker 1: 33:24

It was the same for me. Actually. My dad, especially my parents, were kind of separating and when he had to go to these corporate dues you know, the races, the horse race, whatever he my mom never obviously wanted to go because they weren't, and so he used to take me and I was like 14 years old or whatever 15 years old and I'd have to go and it'd be all men, all businessmen and all you know ceos and c-suite, and I'd have to spend all day at the bloody, wherever we were, a race day or a corporate exhibition. And you do learn like they just want to talk about normal stuff, really, and have a laugh and have a drink and like the rest of us. So, yeah, it mindsets massive and I look forward to hearing your um grilling of all the people that are nailing it to find out exactly what their mindsets are, so we can all learn, um, oh, and let me just say this.

Speaker 2: 34:14

I gotta say this like I'm a huge proponent of ai. I love ai. Ai is going to completely change the game and I think we're about 12 months away from some really crazy stuff. Ai is actually killing your business right now oh, tell us I think there's too many people right now focusing on the next shiny object and they're spending less time doing what they're supposed to be doing to win in recruiting.

Speaker 1: 34:40

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I don't know Well probably.

Speaker 2: 34:49

I'm seeing it a lot where it's like you know, yes, test the tools, but if you're like you know that it takes you X Y Z amount of calls or X Y Z amount of emails, I'm seeing people slowing down, hoping that that AI is going to be that thing, that silver bullet, which it's coming. But don't stop the work, because when AI gets good, it's going to be those. The people that know the art of influence are going to be the ones that are going to be the winners.

Speaker 3: 35:19

Yeah, what did Adrian say to us the other week in Australia? He said his view on AI was you either need to be doing that much and everything with AI that it's almost impossible, you won't win, or you may as well wait let everyone else see what works and then just do it and just what you're good at in the meantime.

Speaker 2: 35:40

Yeah, yeah that is so good yeah that's really good.

Speaker 1: 35:42

I guess it. That's where I suppose it's helpful. I find, um, you know, our groups helpful for this, because I'll kind of watch the community and they'll say if you has anyone to use this?

Speaker 1: 35:52

has anybody this? And what do you think of this? And what do you think I let everyone out. And then I see recurring themes, you know, over a period of months. It's like, yeah, this is really good, yeah, this one's really. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to use that one. I'll wait for everyone to try everything out. And then I Gamma's my latest one. That's fucking insane, it's so good.

Speaker 2: 36:12

Is it the PowerPoint one? Yeah, I use beautiful AI and I just love that.

Speaker 1: 36:17

Oh, is that the same as Gamma?

Speaker 3: 36:19

Oh see, how do you guys throw in a spanner in the works.

Speaker 1: 36:25

Oh, very good, Tell us about your summits. What do you do with the summits and what's the objective of them?

Speaker 3: 36:34

I still need to figure out what the objectives are.

Speaker 2: 36:38

I'll do that for you, beth, behind the scenes if you want a good laugh. This is how the first summit I kind of put on. I was like I was on a run and I'm like you know what It'd be kind of fun to pull some of the podcast guests together for a week and just have people learn, and I'm like you know I'll make it free and then, if you want to replay, I'll charge like a little bit for the replays. And that's literally where the idea came from and, like every single one of the summits that I put on, I actually make them free for all the live sessions. And you know, I think this, this summit this october that you guys are speaking at, there's going to be like 25 plus speakers, so it's like you can come learn what you want to learn for free. If you want the replays cool, awesome you can get the replays. There's like a super small fee. But getting around other recruiters that are just absolutely crushing it, getting around trainers that can give you those next steps, figuring out what trainer works for you, figuring out what style of recruiting works for you, I truly believe can make a huge difference.

Speaker 2: 37:42

And I've seen people come out of the summits and completely change their desk completely change their lives.

Speaker 2: 37:47

People that didn't pay for the summit.

Speaker 2: 37:48

They just came and figured out what talks they wanted to show up to, came, listened, implemented, got re summit they just came and figured out what what talks they wanted to show up to, came, listen, implemented, got re-energized and went back out.

Speaker 2: 37:58

And here's one of the things that you see, you know, like a lot of the big firms and like I don't know the big firms in the uk as much as I know the big firms in the united states, but they have quarterly and or bi-annually sales conferences. And there's a reason why they have them, because every single time you get everybody together, you educate them, you motivate them and then you get them out the door and they're excited about their career again. And you always see, if you looked at their numbers within the three months after a sales conference, most of the numbers would be high. And then you start seeing this little bit of lag and I normally have the conferences like every three months, just for that behind the scenes purposes, because I know that's when many times recruiters just like okay, the energy's coming back down, let's, let's bring the energy back up again.

Speaker 1: 38:47

Yeah, we do the same thing. We do the same thing in our group. We get together every quarter Every other one is in person and spending two days learning from peers, learning new approaches. Refreshing mindset just shifts everything. And then they go again and you know, obviously ours is completely retained focused. So what's your view on retained, by the way, ben?

Speaker 2: 39:11

I think it's a smart place for you to be and it's also one of the things that truly, I've seen with the conversations that I've had. Retain doesn't have to be just executive search Like when you think about Retain you're like, oh, it's the executive search firms, it's the big guys that do it, x, y, z and making these like CEO placements. Because of the podcast, I've seen retained on director level roles. I've seen retained on engineering level roles. It's how you phrase the conversation and how you phrase the mindset going into the conversation and I think one of the things that many of us recruiters have to have, just because of the way the market's changing, we also have to be able to present multiple types of offers based on the company's needs.

Speaker 1: 39:56

Yes, of course, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 39:59

You know, one of the mistakes I may always go back to my first week of my recruiting business was I had a company call like oh, you have your own business now Can you help us? We need six contractors. And I got the call I was like, oh, awesome, new business.

Speaker 2: 40:16

And then I realized I was like awesome new business and then I realized I'm like, oh wait, I can't afford a contractor on my desk. Of course, at that point in time I didn't know about EORs, I didn't know about factoring, I didn't know about all that stuff and I'm like I don't have enough money in my bank account to be able to pay for these guys for a week, let alone wait for a net 30 or net 45. But I think the modern recruiter, the modern recruiting company, needs to have multiple offers in their back pocket, even though something is going to be the focus.

Speaker 2: 40:39

If your focus is going to be retained. Awesome. What if you don't win every single deal? You have a contention in your back pocket. What if they tell you you know what, I really don't want this retained deal right now, but I really need five contract engineers. Guess what you can call up an EOR. Literally, just say I can actually do that. Have an EOR behind the scenes, take care of all the things behind the scenes. All right, cool. Hey, I just got you your six contract engineers. When they do a good job, you're now deeper in the company. You're now deeper in the relationship. So when that other retained opportunity pops in, guess who they're going to think of?

Speaker 1: 41:15

You? Yeah, exactly, yeah, lovely Ben, it's been a pleasure, Thank you.

Speaker 3: 41:22

You can come on again, Ben, if you want.

Speaker 1: 41:23

You can come on again, it's easy.

Speaker 2: 41:28

Well, thank you guys.

Speaker 1: 41:29

We'll definitely have you back, so please collect all the mindset stuff, and we'd love you to share it with our audience too. Where can people connect about the summit? First of all, what is it? How do they get involved?

Speaker 2: 41:42

I mean, feel free to actually just shoot me a message on LinkedIn. I heard about the summit. Love to register. I normally don't really start promoting it until later on in the summer, going into it. But coming up in September we have the AI Summit, which is free to go to, just like the Finish Year Strong, and then October is going to be Finish Year Strong and then in December we're actually doing a Firm Owner Summit. So that's going to be something new, but that's not quite the focus yet. So I haven't really started talking about that one. But hit me up on LinkedIn podcast, the Elite Recruiter podcast. Make sure to go find your episode first to listen to if you're going to listen to it.

Speaker 1: 42:22

Yeah, if you're interested in maintaining, then we give loads away. I gave loads away, didn't I in that episode? Loads of help, loads of tips. Yeah, definitely so they can find you. Benjamin Mina on LinkedIn or the elite recruiter podcast.

Speaker 2: 42:35

I'd say those are the two places I live the most.

Speaker 1: 42:43

Well, Ben, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Speaker 2: 42:45

We'll see you very soon, yep. So you guys thank you guys so much for the invite for the recruiters that were listening out there. I want you guys to understand the value that you can bring to the table, and you guys are some of the best teachers in the business when it comes to the retained work and the retained mindset. How would it get those fees? Actually, I had you on as one of the summit speakers and then just chatting with some of my friends that are in the retained search, I was like hey, just check it, who's the best in the business when it comes to teaching this? And got you guys. They came back and I was like oh yeah. I was like okay, cool, I already, I already have them in my pocket, like I already got them going for another session.

Speaker 1: 43:22

So like oh, thank you, Ben, you're very kind, you say all the right things. Lovely to see you. Thanks again. We'll see you so soon.

Speaker 3: 43:33

Thanks for listening everyone. See you guys.

Speaker 1: 43:37

Well, that's another episode of Retrained Search the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, linkedin controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver Retained Search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearchcom. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi, we don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is.

Speaker 1: 44:07

We want to say a special thank you to our Retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our Search Mastery Program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrained Search the podcast.