Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Hello and welcome everybody to the Retain Search show. We're delighted to be here with Nick Hoadley of Insurance Search. Welcome, nick.

Speaker 2: 0:32

Hi Louise, great to be here, gorgeous day outside. Yeah, isn't it Looking forward to the chat? It so is.

Speaker 1: 0:40

I have to say before we start I am a little bit distracted. I have the hottest gardener in my garden right now you have ever seen. I just went out to make sure they were okay and maybe my computer went.

Speaker 3: 0:53

Oh, I bet you did, I bet you did.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Oh my gosh, hello. He looks like Stephen Bartlett, so I'm a little bit distracted by that because there's a window there. Apart from that, I'm all yours and all his bit distracted by that, because there's a window there.

Speaker 1: 1:08

Apart from that, I'm all yours and all is so today we want to find out all about Nick. I'm so excited to have you here. We've talked to you a lot about coming on the podcast for several reasons, but first, before we dive in, tell everybody who you are and a bit about your business, if you will, nick, as a bit of an intro. Yeah, great thanks Luke.

Speaker 2: 1:24

Yeah, so Nick, as a bit of an intro yeah, great Thanks Luke. Yeah, so Nick Hoatley, founder of Insurance Search. We're an executive search practice and talent research consultancy for the insurance sector. Work across the UK London markets, right across the US and in Bermuda as well. So in a snapshot, everything executive search and research for insurance.

Speaker 1: 1:48

And how long have you been running the business now, Nick?

Speaker 2: 1:51

Do you believe it's been nine years now? I can't quite believe it's been that long. So I always remember when I actually set up the business and I'm not sure if I shared with you guys before, but I actually didn't work in recruitment before I set up the company, so I was working as an insurance broker myself and the reason for setting up the business was that I found it quite challenging to find a good solution for hiring talent into our organization and we actually had to change our business model. Actually, we had to go down acquisition routes, so we actually had to acquire other companies to bring their talent in rather than recruiting them. That's that's. That's how difficult it was and it's actually quite a big challenge across the insurance industry as a whole and we see that big time, certainly in the US. So it was one of the reasons for setting up.

Speaker 2: 2:41

but I remember the first few years. I was always telling people yeah, I own this recruitment company, but I'm not a recruiter. You know, I'm an insurance broker, I'm an insurance guy. And um, yeah, now I think, about nine years in, I think I, I have to come and say I am, I'm a recruiter welcome to the dark side, nick it's a bit like AA, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 2:59

it's like you've got to admit it at some point, I think yeah, you do, you definitely do. I mean, and and interesting, I meet quite a few people that have not necessarily insurance brokers but, um, one of the calls yesterday he was a product manager actually and then moved into talent, but only very recently. Did you think that you were going to be able to kind of do it better, easily, than recruiters, and how was the reality, what you thought it was going to be?

Speaker 2: 3:32

yeah, I mean that's such a great question, think I think I've just witnessed a lot of examples of it being done really poorly and I think and actually we might get onto this a little bit later maybe that was to do with some of the business models, some of the relationships that we had with the recruiters that we were working with, but I saw a lot of poor examples and it did make me think. Well, I know what a good broker looks like. I know what a good underwriter looks like. I know all the people, the companies. I know what a good company looks like to work for.

Speaker 2: 4:06

Surely I can play that matchmaker and bring the professionalism and industry experience that I could offer, and that's what I saw lacking from some of the options that we had at the time. But then, certainly, as you grow, you do realise and I remember I invested in a lot of courses, I really sort of got trained up in best practice you still do realize about the challenges of making deals, particularly when you're working contingently, actually, all the different things that can go wrong and you might have a great client, you might have a great candidate, and you still can't put them together for a whole host of reasons and lots of things can go wrong along the way. So from one perspective it's a lot more challenging, but I would also say, compared to some other industries, I think there's great opportunity. There's a lot of companies that do start off in a similar situation to what I've done and have been very, very successful. So if you can get the right formula, you can do really well.

Speaker 1: 5:04

Well, it makes me think about the others that have had a similar route successful. So if you can get the right formula, you can do really well. Well, did it? Um, it amazed me think about the others that have had a similar route. Was it surprising to find how you know how that model worked and the sort of frustrations that came with it? How did, yeah, how did you get on with it.

Speaker 2: 5:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, really really interesting question, because I think you assume, right when you're in the client's position, that when you're a recruiter, you get the role and you're going to find the candidate and you're going to place them and you're going to make a nice fee out of it and everyone's going to be really happy.

Speaker 1: 5:41

Yeah, that's the dream that's the dream.

Speaker 2: 5:44

I mean, that's the retained. That's the retained dream when you start out and you're working contingently and all of a sudden you're being put on a psl, or you know, and you're just so happy to get on a psl with a great blue chip client, when you realize there's four or five other firms who've been going a lot longer than you have, they've got their databases and you know, you're you're speaking to candidates, having great conversations, you're presenting them, and then they say, oh no, we've already received this cv. He said how, how can that be? I only spoke to them yesterday and I've just produced this amazing resume for you. Oh, we've already received that. Or hiring managers changed their mind, or pulling this role, or whatever it was, and and that's where, I think, the frustration then builds up you think, well, it's not as easy. It should be easy. But I think when you start out, there's a lot more challenges and hurdles than what you expect.

Speaker 1: 6:37

Yeah, there definitely is, I think, and that was the same with the guy I was talking to yesterday and he said it's just nonsensical really the way it works and couldn't, and immediately six months in has gone. That's just not a way I'm going to entertain carrying on like how long did you kind of battle with that and work as best you could with it?

Speaker 2: 7:02

probably three, three or four years.

Speaker 2: 7:05

And yeah, I think, from from what you're saying about the conversation you had, I think if you're coming from that professional services background so I worked in insurance broking and before that, training as a lawyer you know when you're a lawyer you don't don't go and do write a contract for a company and then they have three other, four other lawyers writing a contract and they pick the best one. You're just not used to working in that environment. I think it's the same in insurance. You've got your clients, you do a great piece of work for them, you find the best coverage for them, you build a really good relationship. As soon as the client starts bringing another broker into the mix, it all goes sour and it puts everybody on the back foot. I think it's just adjusting to that way of working and that probably led me onto that retained route, probably a lot quicker than maybe some other folk, because that actually seemed like much more of a logical way of working and partnering with clients rather than that sort of no win, no fee, free for all.

Speaker 1: 8:02

That's the contingent world it's something that you just sort of because I actually don't know how we ended up working together, like was it something that just dawned on you one day, or you heard about this. You know different way of working, or how did it come about.

Speaker 2: 8:17

So I think we were working about 50% retained at the time and that had come from just doing really good pieces of work, clients happy with that, and just the more we built those relationships we got more confident to start. You know, charging up front, start charging higher fees. We were doing more and more work in america and party through the podcast that we launched and they were much more used to work in a retained way. And when you're working with a client who's used to work and retained, it's a lot easier to to sell the retained solution. So we're about 50% of the way there.

Speaker 2: 8:48

And then I think I heard you on a podcast actually it might be a TRN podcast, I think a podcast back in the day yeah, james Osborne, I'm sure it was and I heard that and I thought, look, I've got to reach out to you because you know we we're doing this 50% but we're just doing it in quite a haphazard way as clients coming on. It'd be really good to formalize that and I think that's when we we probably had our first video call. It must have been five years ago, I would have thought gosh, my gosh.

Speaker 1: 9:16

Five years. It's been five years. That's nice. And what tell us a bit about the journey since then? What have you been up to?

Speaker 2: 9:30

Yeah, so, yeah, quite a big one. And I think first of all, doing that search foundations with you really helped to build out a process, a sales process for selling a retained solution to clients and to prospects. So that was the first key thing. We got up to 100% retained quite quickly. You then very kindly invited us onto the mastermind group and I think that that must have been two and a half, three years ago.

Speaker 2: 9:52

That's then really when we started building the business and that was when we were really like, right, okay, let's gonna change this to a 180 model. So we have a delivery team that just focuses on building relationships with high quality candidates, building a research team that maps out the market and then knowing for me that I don't then do delivery, then really that helped me to then elevate and work much more on the business, and then a lot of our business growth since then has happened, since I've gone off the tools on delivery, so I'm still very much focused on sales, bringing in work. I'm trying to build that across the business. But really that big step I think was was going from being 360 even being a retained 360 to then elevating and passing the work to our fantastic delivery team that we've, that we've got here and I think that that made a really big difference and big impact and how has it changed for you personally, or what?

Speaker 1: 10:52

what differences in can you see in your life since those early days of clients saying thanks very much, but we don't want to hire this role anymore, all those things that used to? Happen to looking at the way you work now. Has anything, has it had any impact on you outside of the work?

Speaker 2: 11:14

yeah, I think, a couple of things. I think I've always been quite a positive, probably quite confident person, and I think most recruiters need to be, to be successful, to have a positive outlook on life and and to back yourself, and I think that was slowly sort of getting beaten out of me actually in those contingency times and I think you start feeling like that you're not, you're not as valuable, you're not working on a peer-to-peer relationship, and I think you then, you know you then start, don't really want to mention to people that you're a recruiter because you know the, you know the, the stick that comes with that. You're working with talent acquisition at these big companies and they're just treating you really poorly and you're thinking, you know, excuse me, like I'm running a business here. I've got a lot of skills, I've got a lot of value that I can I'm bringing to you and you're treating me like I'm running a business here. I've got a lot of skills, I've got a lot of value that I'm bringing to you and you're treating me like a piece of dirt. Um, but you just get into that cycle and I think, yeah, moving to retained and then really having that time to do a really high quality piece of work for your client.

Speaker 2: 12:20

I think that actually just just helped elevate me personally again and found that confidence, that professionalism For us. We're quite fast turnaround. So four weeks for a short list, but four weeks gives us plenty of time to really map out the whole market for our clients, to make sure we've approached every single person, really, really detailed information and screening and just being able to work that level of professionalism. It's just so much more enjoyable and I find the work much more enjoyable because of it. And I think personally I mean I still don't have much time, I think as business owners. You know I'm always looking at building and coming up with new initiatives and ideas, but the fact that the delivery side is taken care of it means that if I do have a round of golf or if I am on holiday, I'm not just always checking my phone speaking to candidates. It's more about thinking about initiatives and things that we can do in the organisation to grow it rather than just manically being on that hamster wheel trying to bring in more candidates.

Speaker 1: 13:31

So, yeah, definitely had a big impact on me and on the business as well. It's taken you like I see it's wonderful to be a part of the um journey that you've been on and and are still on, and it's taken you into pieces of work that are different to kind of straightforward recruitment work as well. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Speaker 2: 13:51

yeah, I mean it certainly elevated us for sure. So I think since we started working together very early on, we had some big ceo and president searches that we were mandated on and we provided fantastic shortlists and um. It was a very smooth process and they were. There's some really big fees, really big big hit in the work which we turn into case studies and we've used more and more um more. Lastly, so in the last 18 months we hired a researcher and that's a huge impact on our business. So a lot of that research that we do as part of the assignment we're now actually building in as a separate, standalone product and service for our clients. So if we were to sit down with a new business, new stakeholder so it may be the head of HR or it might be the COO we we can actually generally ask them what's on your agenda at the moment and how can we help you with that? And if that's a new hire, fantastic, right, we can do the search for that. But if it's right we're looking to expand it to different markets or we're looking at new product lines or we've got different considerations about how we grow as a business, well then we can help them with that by providing them information on what their competitors are doing, what other companies are doing and that, and bring that all together to help them, help them with their strategic planning and strategic decision making. So that work then brings us really closely with the client and you do feel like you're providing more than one solution and you're there for them to help them grow in in all different respects. So that's that's been something over the last 18 months that's really grown for us as a business.

Speaker 2: 15:31

We were calling it market intelligence and we, over the last couple of weeks, we've realized that it's probably not clear enough to clients when we first talk about it. So we're now referring to us talent research, which is essentially what we're doing looking across the market about different parts of talent in different insurance companies, how they're structured at an executive level, it might be where they're based geographically. We might look at some talent mapping. We sometimes even sit down. So I sat down with a client last week who were based in Bermuda a really small business and they came to us us and I think they really wanted a contingent search because they're looking for their first BBE guy quite a small business and actually we didn't want to do it on a contingency basis. It's going to be quite a difficult, challenging piece of work and it really requires a retained approach. But they're not really in that position to really commit to, to retain search.

Speaker 2: 16:26

So what we actually agreed to do is we said to them why don't we map the market for you? We'll find out. All the people on the island have got that skill set. We'll then pass that to you. So we'll do that for a small fee. We'll pass that to you. Then you can go ahead and reach out, build those relationships and bring those people on board. So we've ended up with a nice little piece of research which is giving them a lot of value. And if they get to a stage where they don't end up bringing that one of those candidates on and they find it difficult, they'll come back and we'll do it as a full retainer. But at that stage they will know that they haven't been able to fill it themselves. The research we've done and we can then go and do that for them so sit down next, and bermuda isn't them.

Speaker 2: 17:08

Yeah, yeah. No, it's not a bad place to go for.

Speaker 1: 17:12

I'd sit down, yeah yeah, it always sounds so nice. Um, I, yeah, I'm, and what's lovely for us is you're able to then share how that's happened for you and how, because those of us, you know that have come from contingent and you know you're one of them. To Nick, we sometimes or I used to listen to people talking about things like that and think that's just so far away from what I'm doing right now and almost sounds like is it actually real, is it actually achievable, is it something that I can actually do? Like, what would you say to someone that's kind of listening to this, that's thinking that's way out of my, you know, possibility?

Speaker 2: 18:00

Yeah, I'd say it's really achievable. A lot of it is the research that we do as part of a search anyway. So we're doing that work anyway. So in most cases, sharing our results or sharing our working like we used to do at school.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:16

And actually that's the difference with the Shreks. You know Shreks do some of that work, but they guard that. That's what they guard from their clients, whereas I think we can make a big difference and show a difference by sharing that with them. I think it's very possible. What I'd caveat that was saying is if you are a salesperson and a recruiter and you enjoy bringing in new clients, you may not have the skills or the maybe attention to detail required to build out research projects. So it's about having the right people in the right seat.

Speaker 2: 18:53

Okay, so you don't want a frustrated salesperson doing a really long piece of research work. If they want to get on the phone and be speaking to people, so maybe test it, maybe do one yourself. Just see if the clients you know find the value in it. But as soon as they do, you know you can find really good researchers out there. You know there's grabs out there who really enjoy doing some of this work and you can start testing that out with the clients.

Speaker 2: 19:16

But I would say, yeah, elevate yourself. Don't add it as another thing that you want to try and do yourself, because if you're already 360 or if you're doing a lot of sales and you're running your business and you're doing a research project which might take 30 40 hours and it's going to stop your bd work. It's going to be a distraction. So I'd maybe start off with a small piece of work and then look to delegate that as as soon as you can, but then it adds so, so much value going forward yeah, and just as you say, nick, it is a natural evolution of working on a retained basis and providing solutions and the depths that we go to to deliver those.

Speaker 1: 19:53

And I see so many people in the group that you're in, in the mastery group, who kind of interpreted this in different ways and have evolved their service proposition to suit the needs or demands of their specific market. And sometimes that's mapping, sometimes it's, you know, breaking it down into modular search, sometimes it's, you know, lucy's is a piece of pipelining, future succession pipelining and it feels like a long way away from where you might be now as a contingent recruiter. But actually it is just an evolution of the next step once you move to retain. So don't panic and think I can never do that. Just take the first step of learning. Like you know, how does this solution based cell work? How is it different from? You know the contingent model and you, you can get there. You know you can, you can get there. Um, the other thing that I think.

Speaker 2: 20:44

besides that, yeah, if I may just add to that, I think this, the more I certainly learn in business is around just testing things and trying things out on a small basis. So you know whether you're going to launch a podcast or whether you're going to do some videos or whatever that's going to be, you know, doing some research. Just test it on a really small thing. Don't invest too much into it, see if the client likes it it, see if you enjoy doing it, and then you can take things from there.

Speaker 3: 21:10

I thought it was interesting, nick, what you said earlier as well about we were 50 retained and there was like gaps in our process and it and it wasn't probably where it needed to be. The only reason I say that is I spoke to a guy in australia this morning who's exactly the same 50 retained. He thinks he's kind of got it covered and then just in a conversation you realise there are so many gaps and he's 50% retained and all he's done is given it a go and that's more than most people do, right, most people won't even venture down that road.

Speaker 1: 21:41

Yeah, exactly, and so you mentioned the podcast, and I'm glad you did, because Nice segue. Thanks, nick, one of the things that we really wanted to talk to you about was the podcast. How are you used to being on the other side of this as a guest? Have you been a guest on a podcast before?

Speaker 2: 21:58

I've done a fair few. Yeah, interesting mix, interesting mix, and I know you guys have been guessing quite a few as well. It's quite a mix of prep that you get, or different conversations, or, um, yeah, it's an interesting world, the podcast world so you're normally on this side of the table.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Will you tell us a bit about that journey for you? Where? When did you decide to launch a podcast, why and what have you been doing with it?

Speaker 2: 22:31

yeah, I mean we launched ours in in running 20 when we were twiddling our thumbs because we had no work, because the whole country got down, and so that was our, that was our um, that was our way of really staying, staying relevant, really. But it'd actually been something that I wanted to do for two years before that and it was probably because we were working in that contingent mindset I just didn't have the time to actually launch it. So that actually gave us a bit of breathing space. And, yeah, we launched a podcast which was really with the view of interviewing senior executives from our industry, finding out how they got into those C-suite positions, providing advice to the next leaders coming through. It's called the Insurance Coffeehouse Podcast. So we've got that name. I think we've got our name. Actually, before we launched our podcast, I'm like you guys I know you're still strategizing- Actually we could try the retained coffee house.

Speaker 3: 23:30

There you go, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:33

There we go. What was it? What's it like then to begin with? How did you set it up? Was it just like this on Zoom, or did you invest in? Yeah, very straightforward?

Speaker 2: 23:44

Yeah Again. So just you know, we were already having Zoom calls with these execs anyway to find out how the business was going during COVID. So it was a case of just recording them and sending them some questions in advance and then just talking through the questions. And you know, these guys are really articulate, they love talking about what they're doing, they love talking about what their business is doing. So it was actually quite a straightforward process. I remember I was nervous as hell though my first one I ever did it was we, I think I set up in the, in our spare bedroom at the time in lockdown, and I remember I was with this like absolute big dog exec from new york and it was going really well. And then my cat just walked across the street in front of me and it just yeah, and I had all this, like you know, the Zoom backgrounds at the time. I think we had like the Empire State Building or something like that in the background and it just sort of like killed all sort of credibility, I suppose, did he?

Speaker 1: 24:44

mind. Did he say something? No, he didn't mind at all.

Speaker 2: 24:46

He didn't mind at all, it was funny. And then our podcast has always just been a purely audio podcast. So back in the day it was just Spotify and a podcast and it was just a 30-minute audio. So in terms of production, there wasn't too much to it.

Speaker 2: 25:03

In terms of video, certainly didn't go down the route of, you know, hiring out studios and that type of thing, which you know I do think is great for for for some of the podcasts out there, but for us it was just really building on that, we were quite clear on what our purpose was. So we were really looking at three things. So one was to build relationships with the guest, so that was really important. Second was to build credibility with our audience. And then, thirdly, we then actually started using those podcasts as part of our search methodology. So once we did a podcast with them, we could then use that as part of the search, rather than saying, right, here's the job spec and here's our little sales pitch. It's like well, let's. It's like well, let's hear the founder or let's hear the ceo talking passionately about the business for 30, 40 minutes. Really bring to life actually what the opportunity is and what they're trying to do as a business as well. So to end up working really well from a search perspective.

Speaker 2: 26:02

But I think the key thing was really building those relationships with the guests. So so you know, as part of this process, you get to have a few meetings. It's potentially where it's a lot easier to reach out to someone and say, hey, would you like to come on our podcast and talk about your business, rather than saying, hey, have you got any C-suite search mandates that we can help you with? You get a lot more engagement and then you can just start building that relationship, that credibility. I think by having the conversation they realise that you've got an idea of what you're talking about and that you can be of value to them and their organisation and then you can really start building those relationships and start turning them into clients and that's been really successful for us.

Speaker 1: 26:45

How has it changed? Has it changed at all? The podcast how has it evolved?

Speaker 2: 26:50

Do you know what I do occasionally listen back to some from the first series and it does feel quite different, but actually the process has changed not very much actually. So we actually keep it really really simple. So on each series we actually have the same set of 10 questions that we ask, so we don't have to do different research for each guest. We know we're going to ask them these quite open-ended questions and then start having those conversations. It's good to see the patterns and traits of what makes people successful as well.

Speaker 2: 27:23

So we've, we've seen that um, and then we've just kept it very structured and consistent and we just gradually built up our listenership, our engagement levels and, yeah, just try to keep that consistency, really not make it too complicated. So I keep seeing, you know we should be doing video, we should be using, you know, studios and all that, but you just thinking about the logistics of getting people there, the time, the expense, the extra editing involved in that. So we just kept it really simple on zoom and it's done the job for us in terms of what we're looking to achieve. So we're not trying to get a million listeners. That's not been our aim. It's been to build relationships with the guests and we can do that by having the zoom conversations and building meetings in as part of that process and building that rapport up.

Speaker 1: 28:13

So yeah, it's actually changed.

Speaker 2: 28:16

It's changed not that much. Maybe a little bit better in terms of my hosting skills, maybe across across the time, but in terms of the actual structure we try to keep it consistent that's's nice.

Speaker 1: 28:27

It's nice to hear. I'm a fan of keeping things simple and not, which is why we're doing the same thing. We're on Zoom with a simple set of questions and we've experimented with studios and stuff, and I don't think you need it. What's it like as a business development tool for you? How effective is it, or helpful?

Speaker 2: 28:51

in four, three, four, three to four years. It was our only bd tool, really. So jordan's probably going to hate me for saying this, but I've never made a call. I've never made a cold call, ever. Um, I've never phoned anyone up.

Speaker 2: 29:05

And we tried email for a little while. I didn't get anywhere, that so for us it was our number one bd tool, which was we had one podcast guest on a week, so that's, you know, four podcast guests a month. You know, we were going to convert a certain number of those into guests and that was into clients, and that was our bd. And what we started doing was, rather than just saying, hey, do you want to come on to the podcast, and then having the recording, it's well, we'll have an intro call to see if it's good for both sides, we start building a bit of rapport and then, if they want to go ahead and be on the podcast, we then have a briefing discussion. That's where we find out more about them and their business and obviously frame it around talent, finding out some questions about talent, just build that up slowly, um, and then at the end of it it's a case of right.

Speaker 2: 29:52

You know, we feel like we're in a good position. We know you really well as a company. Be good to explore how we can help you further. It's just been a nice relationship driven and bd tool. So it's it's been our only bd tool. But I think you know play to your strengths, right. So I would be terrible at cold calling, I think, um, I'm sure I would be and I wouldn't enjoy doing it, but some people love that and they would hate the idea of hosting a podcast. So you've got to got to play to your strengths and I think that's it's certainly helped us as a business and you say it was your own bd tour for three or four years.

Speaker 1: 30:28

That sounds like it isn't anymore no, it's not anymore.

Speaker 2: 30:32

So we've got some other initiatives. So we've um, we just launched, actually, um, our board club, which is a group of uh board members from public listed insurance companies who meet together to help each other find further board appointments, and that's been really good, obviously, a way of building relationships at board level, either for exec search or for board appointments. Last week we just launched our HR Exec Club, which I know we've been talking to you about for quite a while, probably about a year or so, which I know we've been talking to you about for quite a while, probably about a year or so. So thank you for all your help and advice for that. Along the way, we had our first call there and, again, that's very much a peer-to-peer network group for HR execs in insurance really working on challenges that they've got on their desks at the moment or opportunities that they've got in a collaborative environment. So we've got some really good contributors and it's really, um, yeah, very practical solutions driven group of group of peers. Um, so so we've got that.

Speaker 2: 31:38

And then, um, uh, yeah, about 12 months ago, we launched our managing partner program, which is we've got sales people like myself who are managing partners of insurance search. So they have their own license agreement to operate their own insurance search business. We've got four of those across america. So recruiters and insurance execs who run their own insurance search practice and they do all the sales. So they do all the relationship tapping into their network, into their contacts. They have the meetings, they secure the search mandates. Then our team here in the UK then go and deliver on those mandates. So for them it's great they get to do all the selling side. They don't have to do the delivery. And for us as a business we're the all of those leads and business coming in through through that avenue as well, so tapping into other people's networks as well wow, what a journey.

Speaker 1: 32:37

I'm so proud, so impressed, and so we're so lucky to be a part of it.

Speaker 2: 32:43

Nick, you've done so well, well thank you, I mean I, I think a key, really key thing was, um, probably the first mastermind session that we did in person a few years ago and just to see sort of 20 other search business owners in a very similar position, talking about their challenges, talk about their opportunities. It was just so inspiring. And I think, um, I think we're all just learning and you know I, you know I don't attend too many of the collab calls now, because we meet in person. I normally have about eight or nine ideas and it's about then, right, you've got to make sure we implement that before, because I know we come back on the collab calls and there's lots of other great ideas, right, so you've got to like start implementing that across the way.

Speaker 2: 33:29

But that environment that you create just fosters so much creativity and collaboration, which you know we can certainly use now.

Speaker 3: 33:37

It's hurtful mate. It's your crime, I'm telling you.

Speaker 1: 33:39

I am already on the verge of tears. I'm, yeah, going to be honest. In fact, I do find it really emotional. I to be honest, I do find it really emotional. I'm just so proud of you all. You know, I see, um, so many of you work so well together to share ideas and and so many of you are so innovative, like you're saying, test small things out and then go no, and then find something that really suits you and then it kind of goes forward and everyone's learning from that as we go. It's just a joy to be a part of and see the journey and to hear you talk about it in this setting and for those people able to listen to your journey and hear where you've come from and actually the recruitment was totally new to you and it's going to be so inspiring, I know, and interesting. So I'm so grateful, we're so grateful, that you're here sharing.

Speaker 3: 34:32

I'm not taking away Lou from what you and we've done, but it's you guys that ultimately create the environment.

Speaker 1: 34:38

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. What piece of advice would you give to those recruiters that are listening and most of the people listening are, you know, curious about retained working or kind of summer partway on the journey and maybe not, you know, quite got all the pieces together yet Some haven't even started and are a bit scared of it. What advice would you give to them, considering retained work and this whole world that you now inhabit, I would say, if you value your time, then you've got to move to retained mindset and retained model.

Speaker 2: 35:19

Yeah, I'd say similar as that. I don't think it's for absolutely everybody, so I think there's some people who like that environment of of the contingency side of things. Maybe it's something you get a little bit addicted to, um, but I think if you know that you're going to deliver and you do deliver on the work in a professional way with your clients, then the retained is is the option for you. We've actually got quite a good case study. So one of our managing partners who joined us earlier this year.

Speaker 2: 35:51

He's based in Ohio. He's an insurance recruiter 20-odd years. He's had his own insurance recruitment practice. He'd never done any retained work before but he's a high-quality, experienced insurance recruiter and he's basically doing 80% to 90% of what a retained search consultant would do. He's providing a fantastic service to his clients. He knows the market inside out. He delivers amazing sureness. He's never quite had the confidence to try and sell retained. Now I think it was within two months with us he sold his first retainer. It's a 90K fee and the nice thing for him is that he's not then delivering on that. So he's in our delivery team. So I think, george, you'll appreciate this.

Speaker 3: 36:40

He's in Harbour Town in South Carolina for a month, the gold course Harbour Town yeah, exactly. In South Carolina, for a month, the nice Gold Coast harbour town yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 36:48

He's spending a month down there and he's just tapping in every week just to ask how the search is progressing as he continues on his way.

Speaker 3: 36:58

So, if you're further, there's loads of croups in harbour towns. If you want me to go out there for a while, there's a huge network. Right, okay, there is, yeah, there network Right, okay, Okay sure there is, yeah, yeah, there's a lot Florida as well.

Speaker 2: 37:10

I think, George.

Speaker 3: 37:11

Jupiter, yeah, jupiter, a lot of good recruiters there that want to move to the town.

Speaker 1: 37:18

Is there anything you wish you'd known earlier?

Speaker 2: 37:22

Um, good question, I don't think so. I think it sort of came at quite an organic and right pace for me, I think if I jumped straight into retained at the outset, for me it was like working my way up and starting at the bottom and doing a good job and learning and really perfecting my craft. So I probably wouldn't have done anything earlier myself. You know I came there quite early in my journey. You know, for other listeners out there, particularly if you're doing a good job for your clients and you feel like you're doing a good service, I would get it. Get into retain, find out how to sell retain, how to do a retained process as quickly as possible.

Speaker 2: 38:10

Um, I'd certainly encourage them to reach out to you lo to you, george, have that conversation and see where it takes you and just start it on some of your clients or some of your next prospects. It'll just be amazing to see where it takes you and the way you can elevate yourself, the way you can turn down work if you need to, the way you can push back if. If you can't find a way that it works for you as an organization, you know you don't need. You know, especially for a solopreneur, you know, you don't need 12, 15 recs on each month. You probably need one or two, and you're going to have a really great business and then you can invest that time into that work. So, yeah, get get it going as as soon as you can. Um, for sure, but yeah, personally I'd say, I'd say it's probably a journey I had to go through in order to get to, um, that retained mindset, um so many people get to the point you got to nick as well where they're saying like I'm just done with it.

Speaker 3: 39:11

Yeah, I just can't do it anymore. Sometimes you've got to go through that journey to get to the point where you realize you need to change yes, yeah, yes, so true, so true, I think I well, I know I definitely got there.

Speaker 1: 39:21

I very nearly didn't go past that point because I had got to the point where I didn't enjoy it.

Speaker 1: 39:27

I was about to leave the group you were about to leave, yeah, and there's a lot of people we work with that get to that. It's sad that you have to get to that stage, that a lot of people have to get to that stage before they then find a different way. But that's life, right? Sometimes you kind of have to. I think it's a bit like breaking up with a relationship as well. You kind think it's a bit like breaking up with a relationship as well. You kind of have to do all you can before you. You know it's time to go. Yeah, I just I can't do this anymore, and that that's then the instigator for for change. Um, what's next for you? You you've done so much already. I'm not suggesting there should be something next. You've got enough going on.

Speaker 1: 40:01

But what's next for you in the business?

Speaker 2: 40:04

well, immediate plan. So my you know my wife shireen's 38 and a half weeks pregnant.

Speaker 2: 40:09

So we're going to see where that takes us in the next, in the next couple of weeks. So that's, that's the immediate plans and just um, keep everything rolling while I'm away, and you know that's a great point actually. So we've got quite a few mandates on at the moment which, again, our delivery team are going to handle while I take paternity leave and I, you know, we've got several ceo searches. So I've shuddered to think what we'd be doing if, if I had to take paternity leave during a search, if I, if I was delivering on that um. But for us, I mean, we're, we're, we're hiring, we've um, we've got opportunities in our research team. It's a, it's an area that we're, we're growing, we're seeing a lot of demand for one thing.

Speaker 2: 40:49

So I actually had an interview last week with a, with a candidate, with a recruiter, who um told me about how we wanted to be an executive search practitioner, um, and how we wanted to sell executive search and um and recruitment services.

Speaker 2: 41:05

If you look at his background, he was a, he's been a researcher in politics for a long time and actually he's got a real eye for detail and I think really, certainly in his case he's going to be much more suited to research and provide a high quality research service.

Speaker 2: 41:25

But I think when you come into recruitment it's always seen as the be all and end all is to be that salesperson, to be that recruiter. But it can be very different skills between doing the research and doing the selling. So I would say, you know, as we're looking to grow as a business, we're just really focused on finding people with great skills and making sure we put them in the right position to succeed. To succeed rather than what we've done previously is we've brought in 360 recruiters or we've brought people in who really are either sales people and they don't want to get into the detail. We've got real detailed people who don't really necessarily want to do sales but they'll tell you in the interviews they want to do the sales. They think that's what you want to hear. But actually just finding people, high quality people, who we can put in the right seats in the business and help it grow from there.

Speaker 1: 42:11

Yeah, and let them play to their strengths and, you know, do the things that bring them joy. And luckily we're not all the same, we're all different and different things, you know, bring us joy, yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:25

I'd love to see George sit down and write a 50 page research assignment on them yeah, it's so true, I see so many firms pushing the 360 model and getting frustrated when you know each individual member of the team can't. Why can't everybody just build 200 grand a year because sort of two or three hundred a year and then we'll be fine. Well, everybody's got different strengths and everybody's got, and why not play to people's strengths? And I love that the retain model allows us to be able to do that, be able to um. You know, as jess's session uh in la showed us the profiles of each you know and how we're all different and those behaviors and characteristics that lean us towards being good at. You know, the high c's being attention to detail and the high d's and i's being much more um uh typically successful with and enjoy the sales side. Why force jordan to do painstaking, systematic identification of candidates when he hates it and he's not good at it? And equally, you know, to um force somebody like uh you know, an Emma, to be doing the outreach, to engage and have conversations with clients about future business. She'd absolutely hate that. But she's put them together and you've got you know exactly um, and so I love that and I know obviously there's lots in the group neil, amore and so on that have done the same and and and that they would take.

Speaker 1: 43:57

The contingent model doesn't allow you to do that, of course, because you don't know what is coming in. You haven't got that surety of the work. But when you have that, then that's. It enables you to that and it's much more fulfilling, I think, as a business owner, to be able to allow people to find their strengths and play to them, instead of pushing them into, you know, activities that they don't enjoy or are good at. Such a good point. Thank you for raising that. Where can people contact you, nick? I think lots of what you talked about today will be interesting. Do you want people to contact you? You might decide that you don't yeah, always interesting discussions.

Speaker 2: 44:35

collaboration for sure um nickhodley at insurance-searchcom or linkedin, you can find me on there anyone in foreign markets.

Speaker 3: 44:44

Nick can do calls at 3am, 4am. Probably for the next few weeks He'll have a baby in his arm, but he'll be available?

Speaker 2: 44:56

Yeah, definitely will be.

Speaker 1: 44:57

Well, thank you so much for joining us, nick. Thank you for sharing, thank you for being open, thank you for sharing your journey Very, very best with the new arrival and with all the initiatives, and I can't wait for the next chapters of your journey awesome.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Thanks, lou thanks thank you great to be part of the journey.

Speaker 1: 45:16

Look forward to continuing, yeah well, that's another episode of retrained search the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, linkedin controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearchcom. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi, we don't bite unless you're a Shrek firm, that is. And say hi, we don't bite unless you're a shrek firm, that is.

Speaker 1: 45:52

We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our Search Mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search the podcast.