Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Hey guys, how are we doing?

Speaker 1: 0:21

Hey, we're good. Yeah, how are you Good to see you?

Speaker 2: 0:24

Yeah, I'm doing alright, thank you, yeah, not too bad Back from a week away in New York, so just trying to catch up and figure out what time zone I'm in basically. So, yeah, I'm doing alright. Did you enjoy New York? Yeah, I did. It's very busy. It's got an interesting smell to it, do you?

Speaker 3: 0:45

know what's mad? Because I say I've never done it. I went to New York on a school ski trip, oh wow, and I was probably like 15. That's a really odd place to go skiing. So we flew to New York and then we had like two nights in New York Well say New York, I think we stayed in some hostel in New Jersey or something and had to get a bus into New York every day. And then we went up to a place called Vermont, which is in Stowe, and skied there for a few days and I was like I've never been dead underwhelmed, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:17

I was only like probably 15 at the time, right? So maybe I didn't appreciate it and my wife's been desperately trying to get me to go back. I'm a bit like. I mean, I think I'd rather sit on a beach with a cocktail for a week do you know?

Speaker 2: 1:29

I found I found that whenever you go to somewhere where there's these kind of like iconic tourist things that everyone says you must go and see when you go in, there's almost like a sense of pressure, like, oh, I must feel a sense of awe when I get to the top of the Rockefeller or the Empire State or something like that. And then you get there and you're like, yeah, it's nice, yeah, but I'm almost trying to force. There's almost pressure.

Speaker 3: 1:50

Yeah, yeah, I found the same with the Burj in Dubai. It's like yeah, I'm just, I'm just really high up, nice view, pretty warm.

Speaker 1: 2:06

Yeah, it's just really really high, does it? What were you doing? Was it um tourist?

Speaker 2: 2:08

trip, or were you? Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, the temptation was to try and, uh, mix in a bit of work, but actually it's my mum's 60th a few years ago and uh, we kind of all clubbed together and said we'll take you to new york, and it basically took two years for us to actually get it organized. So, yeah, it was all it was all pleasure. Uh, 30,000 steps a day, which is great, and they probably counteracted the ridiculous amount of food that I ate. But I kind of came back, you know, ready and raring to go and kind of desperate to get back into it really.

Speaker 2: 2:35

So it was a nice break, but it's, yeah, it does quite be a good challenge Again.

Speaker 3: 2:40

you're not selling it to me, josh, but gosh, we ate a ridiculous amount of food and the 30 000 steps a day to counteract it.

Speaker 2: 2:49

my view of a holiday is like eat ridiculous amounts of food and do 30 steps a day. Yeah, yeah, definitely, it's not.

Speaker 3: 2:52

It's just the 10 steps from the pool to the buffet three times yeah I love it I went when I was 18.

Speaker 1: 3:01

My mom took me for my 18th birthday what an 18th birthday present. And it was at. We went in December and it was absolutely freezing cold and I totally I had to buy coat and jumpers and things like that because the wind just whistles down those streets and it was absolutely icy. And I'm the same. I was like a bit I've seen all the iconic places you see so much so frequently on social media and in other people's pictures that when you get there you feel like you've been there before or you've done it already almost.

Speaker 1: 3:36

I struggle to find that sense of amazement with you, and we haven't seen each other for ages. Actually, I feel like I might not have seen you since Palmer no, I don't think you have actually.

Speaker 2: 3:49

Yeah, it's been, um, it's been a busy. Can a few months uh, which is obviously really good uh, in our, in our game being busy, but um yeah, it has been a while yeah, what have you been up to?

Speaker 1: 4:01

what's going on? Have you been busy with work?

Speaker 2: 4:05

yeah, so I mean I think you know, and I say this uh kind of recognizing, it's definitely not the yeah, what have you been up to? What's going on? Have you been busy with work? Yeah, so I mean, I think you know, and I say this kind of recognising, it's definitely not the case across all sectors, but we, so we focus on energy and infrastructure and I'd say probably 75% of that work that we do is within the energy side. We mark ourselves as a cert firm within real assets, so that could well include things like real estate as well, but about 75 percent of what we do is within energy.

Speaker 2: 4:29

Um, and I found that it's just a very buoyant market for us um, there's a lot of kind of private capital uh coming into the sector uh and um, a lot of kind of really tough, tricky challenges to solve and really not a lot of people who can do some of the very specific things that need doing, which is obviously, you know, kind of all the ingredients for businesses needing a really kind of plugged-in search firm, I'd say, into the industry. You can actually not only understand… no pun intended.

Speaker 2: 5:00

Well, exactly, yeah, yeah, no pun intended.

Speaker 1: 5:02

He's done this before.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Do you know what? I'm going to remember that one for the next pitch meeting. So that's been good.

Speaker 2: 5:10

So actually we've been quite close to a few businesses who have either made acquisitions recently or are going through kind of strategic value creation planning processes for the next five years and, yeah, it's been really interesting to kind of see how I mean get a few behind the scenes as to something which I, you know we don't really often get that much um insight. Certainly, whenever I worked you know I'm sure we'll talk about it later on a contingent basis, you know you're in, you're in arms at length uh supplier, aren't you and you kind of you see, you get, you get a vacancy and you kind of know why it's there. But that's about it. But you know, the more you get embedded with these businesses and that's really how we uh have built what we have so far is is really getting deep with the clients that we have um, and you know it's a cliche to say they, you, they trust you like a strategic partner, um, but when you do actually have that relationship, it's amazing the, the level of openness that they have and the things that you understand about their business, which you just you wouldn't get in any other way. So that's been good.

Speaker 2: 6:12

Um, we've also got quite a kind of a busier kind of interim, uh, kind of practice, kind of starting, which nice it's been. It's been nice as well, and it comes with different types of complexities and it's all kind of a majority of kind of executive interim, either doing transformation projects or maybe few months in a situation where, um, because we have some of those relationships and they trust us from kind of a capability perspective, you know we'll be asked can you do this? And you know we're always up front and that you know. Well, actually we haven't done that before and it's kind of like you might not have done it before, but we know, we know that you can, we know, we know that you'll figure it out and you'll be able to do it. So that's been an interesting learning curve, actually being able to explore different functions and different roles that maybe you know we haven't got a massive track record in doing already, but because you've got that relationship and trust, the clients are willing to say, yeah, but we know you and you get us.

Speaker 1: 7:32

So we know that you, josh, as you know, you know we we follow it and love seeing you fly with what you're doing, and one of the things that prompted us to invite you to come and talk to us today was, um, something quite significant that happened recently, um, that I felt. Certainly reading it for me felt like a bit of a landmark moment and you mentioned earlier, you know, talking back and harking back to the contingent days. I wanted to share you and a bit of your story with the audience so that they can see and understand that the journey that you've been on is possible and the difference in business, your career, your path, your future and lifestyle and well-being. You, you know the difference that it makes on everything. And that moment you shared really kindly with the community that you're obviously a part of. Um, and I'm going to read it out, if it's okay, is that?

Speaker 2: 8:35

all right with you the audience.

Speaker 1: 8:37

So those um, uh, homeless thing, uh, the post was first time beating a shrek now, I said when I um shared it with a group that I was coaching the other day.

Speaker 1: 8:49

I'm not sure that when we first started working together that either of us were that familiar even with that acronym never mind beating them um and it says, a couple of weeks ago I won a cfo search, going up against two others, just found out one of the others was russell reynolds, which means it's the first time I've beaten a shrek firm. Um, you go on, say, a year ago I struggled to see how a tiny business like ours would beat one of the big firms. And yet here we are. You're very kind to say, the group's been invaluable to the journey and you're big as up, which is really cool. Um, tell us a little bit about that, because a lot of people aren't familiar with playing in that territory and that's all new to them. What was that experience like? What kind of process did you have to go through, and what do you think stood apart? Why were you chosen?

Speaker 2: 9:41

Yeah, I mean, it was very much kind of something which I guess before, kind of a year and a half ago maybe, was, was quite new to me as well and I think always having the perception of, you know, you've got this big multinational executive search firms who you know surround names like google and microsoft and all these other people as the clients and you think, all right, well they're, they're up there and I'm down here and you know, if ever we should meet in the middle, I don't really think I'm going to win anything, but you know, we'll see if we ever end up in that situation. But in terms of the actual process, it was a client who I had done a bit of work for before, but not at that kind of C-suite level. So there was that relationship there and I think that relationship it kind of really developed because we followed a really strong process, the process that is taught on the Retrain Search course, and we were able to demonstrate capability further on, kind of down the food chain, as it were, and we were able to help them to make some really good hires and they were really impressed by that. Um, and actually and actually I think it was, I think it was. You know you do kind of a project for someone and they give you another, they give you another, uh, and you know we pride ourselves and sell ourselves on. You know, if you give us a project, we will, we will. So you know, every single thing that they gave us, we were able to fill it with someone that they were really excited about. So when it came to kind of doing the CFO stage or the need came up they're a private equity-backed business, so they've got, you know, a lot of stakeholders involved as well.

Speaker 2: 11:22

My relationship was really with the chairman, and then obviously you've got other stakeholders from the different investment involved as well. My relationship was really with the chairman, and then obviously you've got other stakeholders from the different investment firms as well, all of whom have various different past relationships and search firms, particularly with Shrek firms. And when it came to okay, well, who are we going to ask to put in a pitch for this? One of them was Russell Reynolds, who was know. One of them was Russell Reynolds who was recommended by one of the stakeholders from the investors. The other one was I didn't get the name of the other one, but I'm told they were kind of almost a tier below one of the Shrek firms, still a big kind of international search firm, and then little old me, who you know. There's four of us who sit in my office here in Manchester, covering the UK and a bit of Europe as well.

Speaker 2: 12:07

Well, you know, even being asked to get a seat at the table, that was very much because of the strength of the work that we've done and actually treating those projects that we'd already delivered the same as we would treat a kind of CFO search. So they kind of know well, if you show this level of diligence for the work that you've already had, then you transfer that onto this search and we don't see any reason why that would fail. So we were asked to put in a pitch, which we did and we delivered, and I think the thing that really clinched it was actually probably down to our knowledge of the sector. So Russell Reynolds and the other search firm they both pitched for a salary range somewhere between the kind of 280 to 300, 320 mark and they were both very adamant, like this is what you have to pay, whereas actually we were able to demonstrate, based on a previous search that they did that they were actually way off in terms of what the market demanded for that role, and we were able to demonstrate that by showing them the data that we picked up from the previous search that we delivered, which kind of gave the client confidence that well, actually we're really plugged in.

Speaker 2: 13:24

But also as well, because of that trust that we built up, we really understood that business.

Speaker 2: 13:30

So actually we're able to kind of present to them you don't need this thing here which these people are pitching at.

Speaker 2: 13:36

What you really need is A, b and C over here, and we know pitching at. What you really need is, you know, a, b and c over here, and we know that because we know the challenges that you're facing here, here and here. And then the feedback that we got was basically, you hit it, hit the nail on the head in terms of the things that are kind of going on in our minds and the challenges that we're facing, and that gave us confidence, uh, to be able to say actually this, this is a really credible pitch. So I think it was the knowledge of the client plus the in-depth knowledge of the market, which I guess some of the more general kind of international search firms maybe don't have that in-depth knowledge of the specific market that we operate in was able to kind of get us over the line and move forward with it. And, yeah, we delivered that and basically closed out uh, that quite recently, uh, and it's been great, it's been really successful.

Speaker 1: 14:27

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of salary level did you end up landing?

Speaker 2: 14:30

so when we ended up uh around the uh kind of 200, 200, right 20 mark.

Speaker 1: 14:37

So so you, know from a client perspective, you're probably 100k on the and then you know all the bonus and things on top of that.

Speaker 2: 14:46

And the reality is like they were just being sold something that they didn't need. We were able to kind of demonstrate that that wasn't necessary.

Speaker 3: 14:54

It's probably still quite a nice fee for you guys. You slept well that night yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.

Speaker 2: 15:02

And then it's kind of like right, what's next? But you know it is in this game. But, um, yeah, so it was good and it was really nice to be able to see uh us win a project again to much bigger firm, which I guess I could say uh, a or so ago I didn't know whether that would be possible.

Speaker 3: 15:20

We had a win recently in the foundation course as well. If you remember it, lou from Ryan, who's out in Tokyo, and he actually there's a theme here he beat Russell Reynolds as well.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Oh really.

Speaker 3: 15:31

He's in Tokyo and he said the exact terminology that his client used was ultimately what we decided is it came down to the consultant and not the consulting firm, and we wanted to pick the individual that we thought would work in partnership with us and give us the best solution yeah, I think I have got some experience of um, of winning work against the.

Speaker 1: 15:53

You know the big established firms too, as you know the big established firms too, as you know Josh and Jordan and I know you have too, Jordan and what I've experienced is, yes, it's all very well being able to oh sorry.

Speaker 1: 16:07

That's all right. It's all very well being able to sell on expertise and discipline, which is great, and that is an added advantage. But unless you tick all the other boxes as well, it isn't um, because there are lots of niche firms, but the first and foremost is the groundwork on. Is the process robust? Is the screening process covered? Is the research process exhaustive? Is the reporting where we need it to be?

Speaker 1: 16:33

is and they'll first do the due diligence on that and then it's okay, which one are we going to pick? So, just like you say, getting to the stage where the baseline is covered in the confidence and comfort around the rigor of process, and then it becomes which, which firm or which consultant is best place to carry it out is an achievement in itself.

Speaker 1: 16:53

To then be selected as the best partner for it and then deliver, it is something else altogether. Um, what I'd really like to do, if you don't mind, josh, is take, uh, the audience back to, because this is a realm, you know, winning work against the biggest executive search firms in the world at you know what's probably 40, 50k fees for a single, a single assignment, and where a lot of the people are that are listening and where you were.

Speaker 1: 17:27

It's what feels like a big gap and for some people, feels unachievable or that it's something that they're never going to be able to do. So would you tell us a little bit about where you've come from and how you've managed to get to where you are now?

Speaker 2: 17:43

yeah, absolutely. So I mean I would say on a good year. I was a very average contingent recruiter. Uh, and I was on a good year. I'd actually say I was probably quite a lazy contingent recruiter who didn't get very good training coming into the industry. Um, I'd say really I was more of an account manager.

Speaker 2: 18:02

So just to go back to kind of the start, so I came in work for one of the ADECO subsidiaries on a grad scheme and was started off on a contract desk doing aerospace clients for sites for businesses like Honeywell.

Speaker 2: 18:20

And then I moved within the same company onto a permanent desk and would broadly do engineering and engineering in a very broad term. The business weren't necessarily keen on specializing in a certain area because they got a fair bit of inbound kind of call-ins. So they wanted people to be relatively flexible around that and I worked there for a few years, ended up moving to another consultancy, uh, and I think the the thing that probably ties that together was not really having the confidence to go in and to sell a service because I didn't know really what the service was that I was actually selling to clients and it was very much like you know, I'll ring someone up and oh, I can help you find people to work for you. All right, well, so can the the 50 other people who've rung me this week. I'm really not having a strong understanding of, well, what does a good hiring process look like, and how can I be assured that I'm going to get to the outcome that I want to get to?

Speaker 1: 19:18

Hello everyone, we are interrupting this podcast recording to bring you some very exciting news.

Speaker 3: 19:26

Yes, we are. This happens once a year at most and in November we are really excited to announce we are bringing back our Black Friday discounts. There are going to be 30 places offering a huge 30% discount for the Retrained Search course. If you've been considering moving to Retained, if you've been considering doing our training, this is the time. Places are limited only 30. So get to our website, book a call and quote Black Friday on that call to receive the discount on one of those coveted places.

Speaker 1: 20:04

Speak to you soon, can't wait, we'll see you there.

Speaker 2: 20:09

So I spent kind of three, four years working for those two companies and then I did pivot, sadly. So I ended up working for a really small business who were contingent but very, very niche within building services, within mechanical, electrical engineering in the UK, and I worked with a husband and wife and there were four of us who basically ran our own businesses underneath their businesses and worked on a commission-only basis. But the benefit of that was they were extremely kind of niche in that building services arena. Everybody knew who they were. They had terms basically with the majority of businesses who were out there. So that meant largely it was a well, we can go and find candidates and we always know that we've got clients to to take those, those different businesses too. But if I'm honest, you know, if I, if I did 150 in a year, uh, as a contingent recruiter, it's probably a good year uh and yeah, I just I don't.

Speaker 2: 21:10

I think I really started to lose confidence, um, and I was kind of at a point where I was like, okay, well, everyone tells me there's loads of good money that you can make in recruitment, uh, but for some reason I'm not seeing it. Have I not the right training? Have I? Uh, you know, is it me, am I just not very good at what I'm doing? And then it was around the time of COVID, around 2020. And I was like, well, I'm working on a commission-only basis. Some of that's going to someone else.

Speaker 2: 21:40

Actually, the thing that I really want to do long term is I want to work within, kind of the energy and infrastructure sector, because that's what really interests me. And if I'm going to do that, I might as well go and do that kind of setting up on my own. And actually I might as well make a bit of a clean break and try and do it a bit differently and and, ideally, look into what it would look like to to do some alternative payment models. And that's, um, probably when I came across, uh, retrained, uh. So I think I first did it in may 2021 and at the start I kind of because you guys are very good at advertising. I saw a lot of your kind of LinkedIn advertising. I was like, oh, that looks kind of.

Speaker 3: 22:15

Just to confirm, Josh, me and Lou are not very good at advertising.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Sarah and the marketing team are very good at advertising Sarah and the marketing team are very good at advertising and I saw a lot of your stuff on LinkedIn. I was like, oh, that looks like kind of what I need, but something inside me I guess I didn't. I didn't push the button for a while, um, until eventually, uh, I was like you know what, like I need to make a change here. And then I went on. I went on, uh, the retrain course and then, I think within six weeks I won my first retrain project and I was like I've obviously got to deliver it now. But then I went through that and I went through the process that was taught on the course and I was like, oh, this actually works. Like theoretically it sounds great, but when you do it it works and the client, the client loved it.

Speaker 2: 22:56

Um, and then I ended up getting kind of really embedded in that business and more and more work coming uh, and I think probably one of the themes of um, maybe my career, is that my real strengths lie in when I've kind of got a client on the hook.

Speaker 2: 23:12

I'm really good at like expanding into other areas of the business and we build really strong relationships and we grow and develop.

Speaker 2: 23:19

I think even now you know some of the areas that I can improve in are starting those relationships off from cold, which you know is probably a battle for a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 23:30

But I think, through realizing that there is actually something that we can sell to clients which does actually give them an outcome that they want, rather than me going and saying how great I am and because of that I can find you people, when you're able to kind of lift up the hood and show clients, well, this is how it works, this is the goal that you want to get to. Here's how we've achieved it and here's some great examples of how we've done similar things for other businesses who have now achieved what you're looking to achieve. They just have so much more confidence in your offering and, yeah, because of that, I think I'm much more confident going into kind of pitches and saying we can do this for you and this is we can get you the outcome that you want, because ultimately, I've got a process that I know does deliver pretty much 100% of the time, providing you do all the things that you're supposed to do.

Speaker 1: 24:27

And how? Thank you, josh. I mean it's been an absolute joy to see uh your journey and continue to be a part of it. For those listening. How much, how many changes have you had to make and what? What further work have you had to do since then to make it fit for the next level of work, for the c-suite that you're now operating up?

Speaker 2: 24:49

yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:50

So I think, um, you know when, when I started doing retain work, it was largely kind of at that kind of mid, mid to senior level um, maybe up to that kind of 100k mark, but then that was kind of where it's at, um, and I think at that level people want to see cvs. They want to see they don't necessarily level people want to see CVs. They want to see. They don't necessarily they don't want to see CVs as in. You know, I'm just going to send you a load of CVs they want to see a good short list of people, they want to see kind of a bit of a summary on each and they want to know that you've gone and done the work in order to be able to recommend. But beyond that, they don't typically get too much scrutiny from further off from their bosses. So maybe the clients that I was, way I'd be working with you know either a they're a head of a department or a business unit director and actually the decision lies with them.

Speaker 2: 25:38

I think the thing that I found, moving up to a more senior level and either you're making uh hires, that report into a, into a ceo, or actually there's then uh investor involvement is the, the demand for good reporting becomes really really key. Um, because if I'm, if I'm helping the ceo make a hire, I not only have to kind of justify in his mind. He then has to go and justify his decision to his investors and he needs to be able to show that actually the due diligence has been done in order for him to make a decision. So ultimately, it's just about taking as much risk away as you can from your hiring manager, which in my case at the moment is often kind of the CEO, because if you can remove the risk and they feel really comfortable in making the decision based on the market reports that you've given them, based on the really solid referencing process that you've demonstrated, based on the psychometric profiling processes that we go through, you constantly give them all this data and they say, yes, this person, yes, that's another tick, yes, that's another tick. And really you kind of get to the end of the process and it's almost like, well, I can't, I can't not hire this person because you know they've just ticked all the boxes along the way. Um, so yeah, I think the reporting side of things has been, um has been kind of really key and also there's just a different level of understanding that you need to have around how those internal relationships work within a business. Um, because I didn't get as much exposure to that working further down, but when you start working at a c level, um, actually those um priorities for different leaders at that top level in the business they can often they don't often always align. So actually there's a, there's an effort to bring everybody to the table, make sure nobody, uh maybe, comes in and and sends the search off course by saying, oh actually, well, I think we need this. Uh, and just the importance of.

Speaker 2: 27:39

I didn't. I didn't always do it. I know you're probably to tell me off, but when we first started I didn't always make sure all the stakeholders were involved in the, in the, in the kind of kickoff calls, um, and that caused a few problems, uh. So now it's something that we, just we always do. Everyone has to be involved, because you can't afford six weeks down the line for someone to stick an oar in and say, oh, actually, what about this? And then everything that you've done. I remember.

Speaker 3: 28:02

I remember me and lou doing a search a couple of years ago and, like you, get a phone call off a different member of the board at 10 am saying one thing and then you get a call off a different member at 1 pm saying you haven't spoke to anyone else on the board, have you?

Speaker 3: 28:15

because I think it was like oh, no, because. Um, if I think back so I think I probably lost my first three or four pitches against track firms and what it was. What I kind of figured out is I was pitching to the stakeholders that I'd always worked with like head of hr, hr director, and they were picking the track firms because ultimately, even though the decision had been passed to them, it wasn't really their decision and they felt more comfortable going to one of the track firms because it was like, well, if corn ferry fail, I can say well, I went to cornry, like what do you want me to do? They're one of the biggest search firms in the world. Yeah, right, whereas there was more of a perceived risk to come into someone like me.

Speaker 3: 28:57

And I was talking about this with one of our members the other week and I'm not from an IT background, but he said oh, it's like in IT there used to be a saying where people would say no one ever gets fired for hiring IBM and and it. I think it was a bit like that, and it just always interesting how your relationship was with the chairman yeah, I think that, um, that's key, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 29:18

and I think, because of, because of the reputation of some of the bigger firms, like we don't have that. So you do have to make sure that everything kind of passes the sniff test, as it were. Um, because if there's any weakness in your process, it's a and that element of doubt creeps in. It's just so much safer for a stakeholder to say, well, I'm going to go with that big search for them because, like you say, I mean you know they should be able to do it and if anyone questions my decision, I can then pass the buck and say, well, you know I've gone to the right people. Um, but I think when you, when you can kind of bridge that gap and certainly this has been my experience is that you can offer a level of value which is just really different to what those shrek firms can offer.

Speaker 2: 30:02

Uh, and you know it's, there's a load of things that we can do as a smaller business to make it more appealing for a company to work with us. Um, you know whether it's flexibility around, um, I say flexibility with the fact that you know we, we build based on milestones rather than time elapsed, so you know you might pay. Just you might pay the big search firm or shrek firm the entirety of the fee and you know you've not seen a single candidate yet, whereas you know we go commencement and then shortlist and then and then signed a employment contract. So people actually they feel like they're paying for something that they get in, like it's not just like, oh, you know, a hundred days and I had anything and I paid the entire fee. So you can.

Speaker 3: 30:41

If you ever want to run any of my objection handling coaching sessions, you are more than.

Speaker 2: 30:46

Absolutely. And that and that and you, you know things like, um, you know we can be a bit more flexible around. It will cost. It will cost more money to do a project, uh, with russell, reynolds or corn ferry than it would do to do with us, because ultimately I don't have the overheads that they have as well, so I don't need, I don't need to charge whatever they charge, plus all all of the different atoms. So you know I can be.

Speaker 2: 31:08

I can be flexible commercially, but also it's still a great deal for me and actually you know it is reflective of the value that we can offer but we can make it more attractive for everybody. So once you kind of realize that and get into that mindset, you kind of back yourself a bit more, saying do you know what? I think we're good for this. Like I would, I would choose us. And I think when you get to that element, yeah, we like if I was pitching for this, I'd choose our pitch over that pitch.

Speaker 1: 31:31

Then you kind of you're in a good place yeah, and I've got to ask then um, versus the 150k on a good year that you were, you were billing as a contingent recruiter. What? What do billings look like today? Do you mind me sharing?

Speaker 2: 31:46

no, it's fine, that's fine and it's uh, I mean, it's probably a great advert for kind of the retraining course, because basically they have been it has just been on like an upward trajectory since since that 2021. So I think, um, I think probably probably didn't author 200 on that first year afterwards and then kind of 250, 300 ish, and then this year has just been much kind of a significant increase. I think we'll probably, I think I'll probably do just shy of 600 this year, um, which is good and I can see I can see not bad for an average contingent recruiter.

Speaker 2: 32:22

Joe, yeah, honestly, and that's the thing, though I realized, like, looking back, and there's probably loads of contingent recruits who were in a similar uh, maybe both that I was in. Is that like I was thinking? Is it me like? Is it me? Am I just not very good? And like it's not you, it's the, it's the system it's the model.

Speaker 3: 32:42

Yeah, it's the model.

Speaker 2: 32:43

You might, you know you, you might be fantastic at building relationships, but if you don't have the framework and the right model to actually get you in a position where you can leverage what you're good at, then you're not going to get anywhere, whereas now I can see significant room for growth and I'd say I'm probably like 60% capacity at the moment. So I can already see, if I want to and if I sharpen up some more of my business development tools a bit as well, where that growth can be, even for me and now my brother works for me. Now there's kind of four of us in the office and I can then look at well, actually I've got a business here that we can grow, and one of the big selling points of doing anything retained versus contingent is there is that level of predictability. I know what my revenue is going to be.

Speaker 2: 33:30

I was doing some forecasting before. I know what we're going to bring in guaranteed between now and I think we just finished it up until March next year, so I know what the next six months is going to look like. So if I want to make it higher, I've got figures that I know I'm going to be able to relate to that, whereas if I was doing it contingently, I know half of it drop out, you know the other half would, you know, be delayed or push back. So, um, it just it's made a massive difference I really liked because I was that average contingent recruiter as well.

Speaker 3: 33:58

I was like anywhere the same billings actually anywhere between 100 and 200k, with like a typical year for me. I remember thinking the exact same thing and now, having been on this journey and seen loads and loads of recruiters make that journey to retain, actually I look back and think some of the best contingent recruiters I know I don't think they could do retained some of them. I mean they could. But what I mean is some people are really well matched to contingent recruitment they enjoy it, keep doing it and actually some people.

Speaker 3: 34:29

The analogy I come to is it's like having a formula one driver, a rally car driver and motivate motorbike driver, the best ones in the world.

Speaker 2: 34:36

If you ask them all to swap cars, they probably wouldn't know where to start, absolutely, and I know some unbelievable contingent recruiters who I would say in a lot of senses in that, particularly in that model, are so much better than I am, like absolute animals who like will, just, will, just go, and you're like mad, like it's a good description yeah, just animals at the same time, people who are absolute animals, but actually, um, I know they could earn more money doing it.

Speaker 2: 35:05

Doing it this way, yeah, because you get a different level of actually Obviously your fees go up, but one they're very good at what they do. So you know they're very good and they're earning really good money doing it as well. And I think you know the big shift for me is I'm not averse to, you know, sitting there doing a really well-written market report, kind of really thinking Some people don't want to do that side of stuff and and again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You know, some people are really keen to get into search, where that's the expectation. Other people are like I want to introduce you to a great candidate I've known for ages and I want you to trust me and I want to make a placement and I want to kind of run off and do something else and like, if that, if that's you, that's fine, but I off.

Speaker 2: 35:45

I think for the majority of and I would, I would, I would say like those really awesome contingent recruiters that I know are definitely the outlier, I would say for, yeah, 85, 90 percent of people would be so much better served by having that security of relationship, knowing that you're going to get paid for what you do and being able to ultimately like it's given me the freedom to develop my skills. Previously I was just. I was just worried about where's the next invoice gonna come from you know where's the next placement, whereas now I'm like, oh, I've got this thing here like behavioral assessments.

Speaker 2: 36:20

I'd really love to explore how I can do this, this and this with them yeah, I've got the time and the space to do that without being worried about some of the the other kind of financial constraints that we used to have, and then I can then think, well, how am I going to turn that into an offering for a client? So it's, you know, the personal growth that you get when you have that level of security. Uh, as well uh, it's lovely so what?

Speaker 3: 36:45

black or white does it. It's a really good call with um someone that's looking to join us in Australia. A couple of days ago, business owner contingent recruiter bills a million dollars a year contingently Loves. It Said I can't think of anything worse than having to get into the weeds of process, like I need to be retained, but there is a huge opportunity for my business, so I'm going to stay over here and do the contingent stuff when that's right, oh yeah. The contingent stuff when that's right, oh yeah, and I'm gonna get the team who do want to do that stuff.

Speaker 1: 37:16

I'm gonna upskill them to do that stuff, so when that's right, we can offer that as well to be yeah, yeah, there's no, there's no right or wrong way of um of doing that is there. So I mean, what? What? This has opened up a whole different way of working for you, josh, and and a future that um probably wasn't there before. What? What's the future for? What's the future for you? For sondra metric? What? What does it look like? What are you thinking? Where would you like to go?

Speaker 2: 37:40

so that's a really good questions, because I'm I've kind of been wrestling with this a little bit recently is like, do we become a really, really profitable kind of micro business of maybe four or five, six people? But like because, because we can be very profitable with this model uh, you know, we stay small and a bit agile and be really profitable, or do I want the I said stress, I don't want the challenge of actually I want to grow that business and I want to invest in the right people and I want to train them up to do X, y and Z. I think the best thing is that it's genuinely both on the table. There are options and actually I can choose which path we want to go down, whereas previously I didn't have the option of choosing.

Speaker 2: 38:30

I think the big thing for me now is probably expanding geographies, looking certainly to grow more in Europe I think America's probably somewhere on the horizon but I want to hire people that I like working with, that I know will do a really good job, and I kind of want to give the people who come and work for our business the option to have a really good life, because, having seen both sides of it and the stresses that come with being a contingent recruiter and then actually seeing the certainty that comes to the other side. You don't, you don't, have to be working 70 hours a week in recruitment in order to, to, you know, make good money, provide for your family, provide for yourself. Um, as long as you've got good, good processes and the ability to to build good client relationships, people want to come back and you can. You can, kind of you know you can. You can work hard, but you can also have a good work-life balance as well. So I kind of want to provide that environment for anybody who comes in.

Speaker 2: 39:34

So yeah, growth in some senses, just trying to figure out exactly what it looks like.

Speaker 1: 39:38

Exciting to have options.

Speaker 3: 39:40

Are you still recruiting at the moment, Josh?

Speaker 2: 39:43

As in for us. I'm open to it. If someone great came along and said you know, this is what I do and here's how I could add some it. If someone great came along and said, this is what I do and here's how I can add some value, then great, yeah, well, I mean, we've got capacity to recruit and just trying to decide whether I, you know, you start hiring people and you think I really need to improve my ability to be a really good manager, like if actually someone comes in. I want to be a really good manager, like if actually someone comes in. I want to be able to make them think actually, yeah, we've got great direction, we know where we're going, the strategy is on point, we're kind of there, but we're still getting there. So, yeah, I'll help you with that, don't worry about that. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1: 40:22

I'll help you with that I've been doing. We can work on that. And how can people get hold of you? You know some people will listen to this and be interested in in your business for all sorts of reasons. Um, would you mind if people reached out to you because they're? Interested in working with you or for whatever reason. How can they reach you, josh?

Speaker 2: 40:45

yeah, yeah, so I'm on linkedin, um and uh, very happy. You know in the in the notes of this that for that to be shared as well. People, my phone numbers all over linked on linkedin. You know, all the usual stuff. Recruits are normally the easiest people in the world to get hold of because they they plaster their uh, the contact details everywhere if anyone wants to reach out and talk and, uh, you know I'm happy to to share anything that's been helpful.

Speaker 1: 41:09

Thank you. We've been joined by Josh Bogues from Sondometric and it's been an absolute joy to catch up with you. I'm so excited about the future. Thank you ever so much for joining us. Thanks for having me?

Speaker 3: 41:23

Are we going to be seeing you in London, Josh?

Speaker 2: 41:25

Yeah, yeah, that's the plan.

Speaker 1: 41:26

Yay, so if anyone's interested in joining us for our next in person mastermind event. It's on the 19th of december in richmond. Just drop me a note on linkedin and I'll tell you all about it, thank you. Well, that's another episode of retrained search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, linkedin controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver Retrained Search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearchcom. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi, we don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is.

Speaker 1: 42:12

We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our Search Mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrained Search, the podcast.