Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Hello everybody and welcome to Jesus Christ Retrained.

Speaker 3: 0:26

Search the podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:26

Still Did we change the name.

Speaker 3: 0:29

It's either just changed or it's about to change, but we'll go with the old one for now.

Speaker 1: 0:32

We'll go with the old one for now. There's some new stuff coming. Kids. And welcome Jordan Nice, to be back in the saddle after summer holidays all round. And welcome Sophie Robinson.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 0:46

I'm a waver always. It's so lovely to have you here, sophie. Today. We're not going to follow our usual format because I want to talk to Sophie for all the time that we have today To introduce Sophie to you guys.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Sophie was introduced to us by Rod Hall. For those of you that have been listening to us and following us and following the podcast, you will have listened to our amazing chat with Rod. He is an advisor on exit strategy and therefore on value creation for recruitment business owners, and one of the many great pieces of advice that Rod shared was that retained revenue is a very sensible route for those people looking to add value to their recruitment business, that ultimately, they won't sell or exit. But the other great thing to do with their recruitment business is temp revenue, and I have a little bit of experience in temp revenue and I'll share some stories of that, because some of them are quite amusing, but not as much as our guest, sophie Robertson and so I wanted to invite Sophie today to share with our audience as much as you're happy to share um on how best to do that. So, sophie, welcome um. I'd love you to uh introduce yourself to the audience a bit and give uh, the guys a bit of a background.

Speaker 1: 2:18

And to George, because you two don't know each other. Do you, sophie, meet George, george?

Speaker 3: 2:23

although I think um it was within the first 10 minutes of us meeting Rod that Rod said have you met Sophie? Because if you haven't met Sophie, you should absolutely meet Sophie. I've been very excited for this, very excited thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:38

Thank you, rod. Yeah, rod said the same thing to me about you guys. He's like what do you mean? You don't know them. He's like you need to know them. So I think Louise and I got on a call together. We're like okay, so we're both here, what is it? And then after about five minutes I think we worked out that yeah, if you're in recruitment, would you do anything other than retained and temp really right. So straight away we were there. It took us about five minutes in. It took us about five seconds.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, totally. So I guess my background is so I work in Sydney. I've always worked in Sydney. I'm obviously Chinese. I went to school in various places in the world, mostly in Denmark, and then, when I came to Australia, someone said you'd be really good in recruitment. And I'm like, okay, what's recruitment? So you know the usual story right. So I was in recruitment for 18 years and I've been coaching recruitment businesses and mentoring recruiters and recruitment business leaders and owners since 2007. So, whatever, that is yeah, so I've been around a long time yeah, I don't rely on this.

Speaker 1: 3:43

yeah, you've been teaching for a while and, um your specialist area of expertise or where you, you know, I kind of landed and ended up going similar to you in that I don't think recruitment's ever a path that people deliberately choose, although occasionally you do meet people that have chosen the other way around. You know, I ended up going down the perm route and the retained route. You went a slightly different way, didn't you? Was it that it was temp and contract from the start, sophie, or did you? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:19

So I started as a temp recruiter in office support what we now call business support and in accounting, and I was promoted to branch manager. I mean it seems insane in hindsight after 12 months in recruitment. So the team I was leading had all been in recruitment longer than me and we're all older than me. So I had a huge steep learning curve but I just always loved the temp space. It suits my personality, personality and I do think they're different, very different jobs temp and perm, uh yeah, and also because I came to love sales and I think with temp there's a big part and I know that you guys talk about that as well but there's a big part that's very analytical and talking to people about their businesses and sometimes the clients don't even know that they can use a temporary solution. You know they're sitting there grappling with their business problems and you might be able to say, okay, well, have you thought about you could actually have a flexible workforce that could do that right? So that's always appealed to me, that you know you could have those kinds of conversations with people.

Speaker 2: 5:26

And whilst I can do perm, it's not really me, I mean. That's just the truth of the matter, you know. I think we have to know where our strengths are and my lane is very much that and, like he said, with Rod, he's introduced me to a lot of clients because it's basically been like okay, you want to sell your business or add value, and one of the first questions I think he asked is you know what sort of recurring revenue do you have? It doesn't have to be temp, but recurring is the main thing. Right, so often where they don't have any temp or contract, that's when he says, well, go and speak to Sophie because she can help you build that and then you know we can look at it down the track yeah, yeah, and we, I mean the people that we work with.

Speaker 1: 6:07

It's a mixture. Some of them have also got uh, temp or interim contract revenue and some haven't. Uh, the firm that I most well, one of the firms most recently worked for, it was majority contracts, in fact, and the perm, or retain division, was a fraction of, um, a fraction of the overall revenue, and that was the same for you, george, wasn't it?

Speaker 3: 6:32

yeah, and I think that happens quite a lot, I would say increasingly so, over the past couple years. Um with the ir35 regulations that came in in the uk with the contractor market, a lot of firms that were very heavy contract focused are starting to increase the amount of perm work they do. And they're coming into that perm world and going what like we did 300K last month and then we've done 30K this month, like wow, why?

Speaker 3: 7:01

And then more gas, more revenue. So I think the benefits of the two are so closely linked yeah, yeah, yeah they are.

Speaker 1: 7:10

Like sophie says uh, you, if you're not either doing temp or retained, then you're hemorrhaging time and profit and sanity. So that's that would be always the model that, um, I went down or I go down and all of the firms that have got that recurring revenue have got those things going on, and so, um, you were kind enough to send me a copy of your book, uh, and I've been reading it with interest and there's, there's so many things in there that bring back memories of my very first job. So my very first well, my first kind of very first far job was being a temp for my mother's agency and when they didn't have, or somebody hadn't turned up, or, as a teenager, my mother would send me out, uh, to go and sit on the reception of sun microsystems or whatever it might have been at the time that's what we do with all these podcasts we just send lou out yeah uh and and then, um, I ended up working for the agency just in a uh, you know, short-term capacity and ended up being their candidate controller.

Speaker 1: 8:25

Was my title? Which, looking back, I mean what?

Speaker 2: 8:28

I'm not sure you could call some controller anymore.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Yeah, terrible. Yeah, I'm not sure I controlled anybody, um, but but it was really really good and so eye opening. And it was in the days that, uh, there was filing cabinets in the office, everything was paper based, there was a fax and I used to have to go at lunchtime and get people from the streets and hand out and go in the pubs, and I was reading your book about how you set up a stall in the local shopping center to encourage people and bring temps onto your books, and it reminded me so much of what I used to do. Um, so can you share with the audience, sophie, what are, um, you know, summary of some of your, some of your tips for, if somebody is starting out with looking at wanting to increase temp revenue or set up a temp desk, some fundamentals that are going to help them to be on the right track so one reason why people can't grow temp revenue, in my view, is because sometimes people come and they say look, we've tried, we've got something going on, but it's not really happening.

Speaker 2: 9:39

The first thing I ask them is are you running a dual desk or hybrid desk where you're getting consultants to do both temp and perm? Like, I really do not like that and I say to people look, that's my opinion, right, but I know that if you want to make money and you want to grow a temp, then you have to have specialists. And the reason is because they're two entirely different jobs. So when people don't do temp, well, in my view, what they're doing is they're doing temp as though it's perm, but that it's for a shorter amount of time, if that makes sense. But they do exactly the same process. Now they're completely different. So I'll explain it to people as this when you do perm, you're essentially a matchmaker, right? You want to make a good match and hope that they hold hands and walk off into the sunset and they live happily ever after. That happily ever after is not really on us as the consultants. Right, you might do a few guarantee calls, but really it's up to them because you've made the introduction but temporary. You're actually managing a remote workforce and that workforce belongs to you, the recruiter. So when you're forcing people to do both, it's like they're switching between the two jobs, right, and what I've seen often and that's why I also don't like it is that recruiters, they sit there and they struggle and their struggle is basically and I say to people, you get the behavior that you reward. So if you're rewarding people on billings and a consultant is saying goes, okay, should I work on this perm job that's going to give me 30 000 in fees, or should I work on this temp that's going to give me maybe a thousand dollars a week in fees? Right, so people go for the big cake rather than the recurring thing, right? So that's why often when people run jewel desks is they'll have, you know, a reasonable amount of perm and maybe five or six contractors or temps out. But if you want to run like 30, 50, I think you call them runners in the UK right, but if you want to have that amount of people or build that amount of hours, you really need to have specialists do it. And because they are such different jobs, they suit different personalities. So I think it's really hard to get someone to do it and because they are such different jobs, they suit different personalities. So I think it's really hard to get someone to do both and of course I know there are lots of people that do both. But I'll give you an example.

Speaker 2: 11:54

I was coaching this medical recruiter fantastic recruiter, been in recruitment for about 10 years, million-dollar biller, several times over all that. She was running a dual desk and she was billing 1.2 million in Australia. And I said to her I'd really like at some point if you could get off the fence. I don't really care which one you choose, but maybe choose one. And she said to me I guess, fair enough. She said why would I? Why would I choose when I'm billing 1.2? And I said because you'd do more, so anyway. About six months later she emailed me and said okay, i've2. And I said because you do more, so anyway. Uh, about six months later she emailed me and said okay, I've chosen. And I said what did you choose? And she said I chose locum. So she chose 10 and she billed 1.6 the first year amazing.

Speaker 1: 12:35

What a good story like it's obvious, right?

Speaker 2: 12:38

because then all her energy I mean what you focus on grows, and when you have split focus, I think that's what happens, you know, and so that's one thing if you will, about just diving into that for a second before we move on to the next thing.

Speaker 1: 12:52

That character, because you referenced it about yourself as well. That suits your character. What is it? What, what, what? What personality suits that hemp desk?

Speaker 2: 13:04

okay, so the first one of the first things and I know I'm going to get you guys to think about it, because one of the first things I say to clients is when you're hiring, because they say to me what do you look for? And I say I'm very clear. But I've hired a lot of recruiters in my time, right, but from the time that you know, we used to have reception desk not by the speed with which they were walking, that's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 13:33

I love it now. Now let me ask you too, because you've both been in recruitment, right? Yeah, the best temp recruiters you work with, if you think back to them, does that apply?

Speaker 3: 13:44

yeah, so I was about to say so, my first recruitment role. I was with the company for about four years and we we didn't dual desk right, we had the temp desk and we had the perm desk and the two most successful recruiters in the business were on that temp desk and everyone would look at them and go the psychopaths. They're so fast-paced, like everything was a million miles an hour. It was crazy. They loved it like yeah yeah, they wouldn't have it any other way that's right, so it's.

Speaker 2: 14:24

I mean, I know it sounds unscientific, but when I've said it, clients have been sat back and thought about they're like you know what everybody that I've worked with that has done temp well they are. They're like those energizer bunnies. I don't know if you have that over there, but you know they're like going all the time right yeah, yeah, like you said you're.

Speaker 3: 14:40

They actually thrive on it, you know yeah, and actually like one thing I would say, and I've never worked the temp desk right, so this is me looking from the outside in. I have massive respect for anyone that can build that temp desk, because it is hard work and it is long hours and you can't say, okay, I'm gonna go home and have tea with the family now, I'll pick this up tomorrow, like they would stay till midnight in the office filling these temples. And I saw a quote a couple of days ago from a british comedian called jimmy carr and he said yeah he said everybody's jealous of what you've got, but nobody's jealous of how you got it.

Speaker 3: 15:19

Yeah, I don't think that applies to the temp desk. It's's hard Graf. I've seen from a close proximity how hard these guys work.

Speaker 2: 15:29

Yeah, so, yeah. So speed, I mean walking speed, right. The other thing that I sometimes hear clients saying I mean that just drives me bananas is they go. I don't know if this consultant's going to work out. So I'm thinking about putting them into temp and I'm, like you, insane because we want the. You know and I'm saying this with greatest respect for everybody else out there but we want really strong BD people to do temp, because if you can't do, if you're not good at BD, I don't think you're going to be a great temp recruiter because you have to go out there and sniff out the business, right. So if you've got someone that you're not sure whether they're going to work out, like don't put your weakest in that section. Like, what are you thinking, you know? So walking speed that matters to me.

Speaker 2: 16:15

Someone that's analytical, I do like somebody with a bit of brain power is talking to a client about this, and what I mean by brain power is we want people that can have a business conversation with clients, right, I mean, I know that's for perm as well, but sometimes people hire people because, yeah, they're quite nice and I don't like nice people as well, don't get me wrong but someone that can actually have a conversation with a client, so strong bd speed. Someone. Bossy is not a nice word, so I'm going to use assertive, right. But when you're running a remote workforce, if you've got, like you know, I don't know 50 people out working, you have to be quite firm. And it's walking a very fine line between being like their confidant you don't want to be their friend, because then you can't get them to go to work. I think which you need right, but can't get them to go to work. I think which you need right, but you want them to trust you enough that they tell you what's going on in their life, but also that they respect you enough that if they say to you, look, I'm really desperate for work, and you say, okay, I hear you, I have a job, then they need to go. So it's kind of like that fine line and I think this is going to sound really weird.

Speaker 2: 17:21

But I think one of the reasons I really like TEMP is because with PERM, you know how sometimes you present a shortlist and you'll have a favourite on that shortlist, right? Or you're thinking I think this person would actually suit that client best. But the client chooses someone else and that's their prerogative. But we might be there thinking but with TEMP we get to decide If you do it well, you get to decide Because you basically say look, I know my workforce, I understand your needs, this is who you need, and you get to decide. So I really like that, because for me they don't know our workforce and sometimes, let's face it, clients are not always clear on their needs. So I think a really good consultant can get to the depth of that and then, you know, make the right match. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Speaker 1: 18:11

yeah, absolutely yeah. I just think it's really thought-provoking. I um, one of the things that you talk about in in your book and I suppose I'm kind of going back to your top tips for setting up a temp desk for someone that hasn't done it before is the speed of response, which I suppose links in with the speed of the consultant that you need to, and there's something specific that you say about that in your book. In your book, um, would you share with those of you those that are listening and george, and what that is about the speed of response to your clients needs?

Speaker 2: 18:50

so now you're really testing me lou, because you know I wrote the the first one in 2013.

Speaker 1: 18:55

It's a long time ago right, but I think you have this 20 minute. Uh, yes, yes, that's right, yeah yes, no.

Speaker 2: 19:02

So a couple of things and I will lead into the 20 minutes. But so how I think about it is you know, when you go to hertz and you rent a car or a so one of those car rental companies, you go up to the counter and you say I want to go off road, do you have a four wheel drive? And they'll go tap, tap, tap, and it's either yes or no, right, and if they have one, you get the keys and off you go. Now imagine if you went to hertz and they say, yes, we do. Here are the specifications of three cars you choose, right?

Speaker 2: 19:32

So here's my thing about how to run a temp desk. Is I say to people, you need to have a fleet, just like hertz has a fleet in their yard. Yeah, now if you know who who is in your fleet and what they can do, you should actually be able to fill a job in 20 minutes. So again, we're not doing it like perm, like we get the job and then we bring people up Like you should really know who you've got out there. And when I say to people, how many people have you got in your fleet? And they go 3000.

Speaker 2: 20:03

I said no, that's not your fleet, that's your database. Your fleet is if you call them, you know they're available and they'll go right. So you'll have to know where they'll go, what they'll do when they're available, how much they'll work for like. You know all that already, so I don't have to be on the phone asking you those things. So that's how you can do the 20 minutes. Speed and quality matters in recruitment and it matters a lot in temp. Right, that's also how you can get jobs exclusively. So our industry has somehow devolved over the last. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Australia where now people are doing temp as though it's perm. So they'll take a job and they'll say to the client I'll have a look, I'll get back to you, and then they present a short list and I'm like what are you doing? Like what are you actually doing?

Speaker 3: 20:56

And I said how long is the job? I've always seen it done in the UK.

Speaker 2: 21:01

Drives me crazy, yeah, done in the uk.

Speaker 1: 21:07

drives me crazy, yeah, because it's not perm so why are we doing a perm process for temp? Well, yeah, we never used to do that I mean, this is years and years ago but they would call us and we would say, yeah, we'll have some somebody for you by tomorrow morning, and then they wouldn't know who it was until they showed up. We would be the one that we would send them in and decide who it was, and they trusted us to send the right person it was. There wasn't a choice on the client side. But at what? I mean that what I was doing was receptionists and, um, uh, secretaries and uh, you know, sometimes PAs, things like that. But at what level does that methodology apply? Does it still apply when it's more senior levels, or they're change consultants or they're interim, you know, finance managers and things like that? Does that still apply?

Speaker 2: 21:58

I think it does. I was talking to an IT contract recruiter and he was dealing with atlassian right and he said you know, they have quite a long process to get a contractor in and one of them is they've got an interview, then they've got to do a test, then they've got to get approval. Like it's quite long. And I said to him what's the test and he said oh, it's some technical thing. I said why can't you uh give them that and the client just tell you where the pass mark is? And he went, I hadn't really thought of that. So then he went to Alessia and the client said great, there's us doing it. Because I said why don't we just skip to straight to it so that they know the person they're putting forward will pass the test, has already passed the test. If the consultant understands the job and knows what that person can do, it's done right.

Speaker 2: 22:46

So the problem I think there is is that people aren't specific enough, and people that know me will now just laugh because they'll say, oh, my god, here she goes again about specificity. I always say to people, if you only get one thing from me in my training, please let it be about specificity and what that means, oh, let me ask you to Think back to a time when you've had a conflict with a client or a candidate and you don't have to like, just pick one example in your mind, any, I'm sure you'll have loads. Have you both got one?

Speaker 1: 23:25

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:26

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:27

Is it possible that whatever happened only happened because someone and I'm not saying it was you, because that's not important in this example, but because someone wasn't specific enough in their communication?

Speaker 1: 23:39

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: 23:41

Right, I'm going to say, in recruitment it's almost always the case and so we can avoid that. And I say to recruiters learn to be specific and to nail your clients and candidates to specificity, because then there's no risk, right? So what I mean by that is when a client says, hey, I want a finance manager, and they go, okay, I'll go looking now, right, I'm like no, no, that's not enough information for temp. For temp, we need to know what do you want the finance manager to do, because it's usually a finite period. So in that finite period they'll want something specific done. That's what we need to understand.

Speaker 2: 24:19

And they might say, oh yeah, the client doesn't want to talk to us about that. And they might say, oh yeah, the client doesn't want to talk to us about that. I'm like, well, too bad, because if they don't, how are you supposed to get it right? Do you see what I mean? And same thing with when they're interviewing is sometimes people tick every box, right, I've done everything. And I'm like, no, no, you have to ask them when they, uh, did v look up on spreadsheets, you know, was it how? What did they do with it? Is it something that they like doing? Is it something confident like that's how granular I think tech needs to be if you're going to be good at it it's similar.

Speaker 3: 24:53

We, um, when people are going through our training, we teach them to use competency-based assessment in the interview process. So we're asking specifically, what are the behavioral and functional competencies this person needs to be able to do, yeah, and what specific scenario based questions can we ask them that are going to demonstrate that capability?

Speaker 2: 25:14

yeah, perfect right, yeah, yeah so to answer your question, lou, um, yeah, I think it applies to every level. And the other thing is, if they really need an interview, then I suggest they do a working interview. I don't know whether you used to do that. So what a working interview is? You know, if someone wants someone next week, is you say, look, I'm going to send this person because you know we've done the match to you on Monday. You guys have a chat.

Speaker 1: 25:46

And all being well they start.

Speaker 2: 25:47

Yeah, so it's really like a meet and greet, but they're going to start right unless you've gotten it completely wrong, and it's unlikely if you've been specific with both parties in order to be able to do this right in my mind, I've got this.

Speaker 1: 26:00

I love visuals, so this visual of your, you know your fleet in the garage and you know your clients coming to you and you then specifying which of your fleet is going to fulfill that need. The communication that you have with those candidates has got to be watertight, hasn't it? And so regular to be watertight, hasn't it? And and so regular. One of the things I picked up from your book is this kind of rhythm of frequency of contact, of them letting the consultant know and this arrangement almost that the consultant has with each of the candidates about being able to act on their behalf and being able to accept a position on their behalf. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Speaker 2: 26:50

yeah. So it's about commitment, right, and you know it's a competitive industry. So you might get a temp, go to various agencies, but it's going to be the one that can give them the commitment that we will keep you in work. But I can only keep you in work if you communicate with me what you're doing, right, because if I have to fill a job in 20 minutes and I know that Jordan's available and I know Lou's available, but then I call Lou and she's not there, I mean Jordan's going to be the first off the rank every time. That's just how it is, because you got, because you have to be quick at it as well. So it's kind of giving them clarity from the beginning.

Speaker 2: 27:29

And, like I say to people, if you don't give commitment, you can't demand commitment. And a lot of people now say oh, you know they don't have any loyalty. And I say to them what have you done to earn the loyalty? Because loyalty is something that people give you, it's not something you can demand. Right, and I think you show that by I will work with you, you know I'll fill all your dates that you have, et cetera. But here's what I need from you I need you to tell me if your availability changes. Of course, we have tech for that now, right. But if you have put it, doesn't matter to me whether it's on the app or you've called me, but as long as I know that you're available next week and when I call you for that job, that you're going to go, that's what's important, because I think it's also important to explain to people why you want these things and you say to them because we have to fill a job in 20 minutes, I can't, I don't have time to talk to five people. So when I call you, you're the person right, but that also means that you have a fairly high chance of getting work.

Speaker 2: 28:34

I have this saying, which is service, service, service and money will follow. And I say to consultants if you always think about service, it, it's going to be okay. So when you're not sure what to do, think about the service, right. And if you think about if you were a temp and you work for an agency that had to send you for an interview, right, right, maybe they send three people for an interview for one job, only one person's going to get that job. Two people you're going to let down, whereas if you work for me and I send you and you're going to get the job. I think you're going to work with me, provided I treat you well, right? So I think it's a an exchange. It's like we work together in partnership to get you temp work I love that.

Speaker 1: 29:18

The other aspect to it I there are so many aspects to it the financing, of course, and the you know the funding and the mechanics and contracts of what goes behind a temp workforce, which of course is different, and the responsibility you take as a you know, fleet leader.

Speaker 1: 29:37

But the other thing is is touching on that service piece is that they essentially are like a remote workforce because in in many cases excuse me, they're actually payrolled by you. And you know, when I was at air swift and for a brief time I did kind of go back into contracts and looked after several hundred contractors we had at ExxonMobil and they were payrolled by us, so they were our consultants, basically, and they were carrying out contracts at our clients place of work and it was our responsibility to look after them. It was our responsibility to make sure that they're, you know, they were well and they were happy and that they had everything that they needed. Um, is that still the case for, you know, temp desks? I kind of felt that was quite unique for that size of client and contract. But what is it if they're just taking, you know they're having one temp from you or one contractor, what level of service do you need to provide?

Speaker 2: 30:38

so I mean, I've always been a high touch consultant, but I think now there's different types of clients, because if you do work for the government, say it's for defense, right, and they don't like them talking to you too much because you're not supposed to know what's going on in there. So it might be low touch, but you don't have to talk to them about their work. What we want want to know is about their wellbeing, right? So ideally for me is that you have some sort of contact with your worker every week, with your temp, every week. Now we have six generations in the workforce in Australia, so we know now that different generations like contact in different ways. Now I don't mind if it's text or um, I actually quite like video at the moment, uh, so it might be video, but different things.

Speaker 2: 31:26

But what's important is that we know how that person is going, and sometimes you could say to me yeah, but they know they can call me if something goes wrong, right, or they're not happy. And I said, by the time they call you, it's already way far down the track. Sometimes it's a tiny thing that we could fix. You know, it might be a misunderstanding between them and the client. Maybe they don't have enough work. Maybe they have too much work. Those things we can fix very easily so they don't have to escalate. Um, in australia, know, we have bushfires, right, and I say to people, sometimes it's just a little grass fire, but if you don't attend to it it becomes a bushfire and then suddenly the person's leaving. All the other people aren't happy because they're talking. So it's super important to me that you know people are looked after, because I think everybody deserves to be looked after. And the people that win I think intent is are the people that can create community and belonging.

Speaker 2: 32:25

So what belonging is? Because you imagine you get sent out to some site, right? Maybe they don't feel like they belong to the client. So if they don't belong to you, who are they belonging to? Right, and if they belong to you?

Speaker 2: 32:42

And my test is actually two things. One is I say to the recruiter tell me a fun fact about your temp. And they go what do you mean? I said, tell me something. That's not about their skills. And some people know nothing. And other people can tell you everything. Right, they have dogs, they're cats, they've got children, whatever they like, hiking, they drink red wine. Other people don't know anything. So the difference is can you have a relationship with these people as people? Because then they're also. It's very hard for others to actually approach them from you, if that makes sense, because sometimes people get poached for very little money, extra, extra money. And then the recruiter says oh my God, it was so little money, why did they jump? And I say to them they jumped because they don't feel they belong to you, because if they did, they would actually ring you and say hey, guess what? Jordan tried to offer me more money to go and do his job, but they actually just jumped.

Speaker 3: 33:44

That's the test. Yeah, I mean all of these things, sophie. I can see how, if you implement them on a temp desk, it gives you an element of control. And it's funny because I remember looking at that temp desk in in that business that I work thinking there's no control though, like it's like they just run so hard and so fast. You're like in the end, no matter how many knocks we have to take, we'll be successful. But like it sounds like it doesn't need to be like that no, it doesn't.

Speaker 2: 34:16

It doesn't. It's funny because, lou, when you, when you said about you, were called temp controller and it was the same here, right, and I just really didn't like that, because we don't like to say that to people's faces, I'm controlling you, but I do say, good, like when I trained him consults, I say to them you need to control every aspect or as many as you can. All right, and we know people. I mean things like loyalty and commitment, all those things we can work on. It's not something we can just say well, because we pay them, they should give us those things. You actually have to build that. But when you do, and you do it well, they, they will help you grow your desk right because they'll ring you. You probably had that yourself where they'll ring you and say, hey, do you know there's other temps here from other agencies? Yeah, right, and they're also your best ambassadors. They will talk about you on site and just go. Why are you using them?

Speaker 1: 35:09

because they're better right yeah, I mean, we used to have a really interesting contract with x on mobile, where when they wanted to bring somebody into their firm sometimes it was a retiree that had actually wasn't used to be an employee, but they then had to bring them back through an agency. They then had like six agencies they had to choose from. Oh yeah, and so you, you, we had to get to a stage where our workforce would sing the praises of working for us and theises of working for us and the benefits of working for us over working for the others, and so they were kind of our ambassadors as much as they were. You know, our workforce, and that's, that's what you want. You want them to spot an opportunity on site and go. Actually, I think I might know somebody that could do that so they're gonna.

Speaker 1: 35:55

They're gonna help you not just identify the opportunities, but, um, but recommend people to you as well. It's, it's so funny, isn't it how it is? I think you lose sight. When you know jordan I've been so absorbed for so long in, uh, the retained world you lose sight of how different that mindset is, and I think it's an easy mistake to think, yeah, we'll just do, we'll just get somebody to do a bit of temp on the side. And you listen to this and you think, oh my God, no way could you do all the things that you need to be able to do to win, secure, deliver, retain assignments and run a temp desk at the same time. It's just not fair, is it?

Speaker 2: 36:35

No, it's not. It's not fair to anyone, I think.

Speaker 3: 36:39

And they're probably different skills too. Sorry, sophie, I was going to say, I made one tent placement and the candidate lasted 53 minutes 53? Never did 10 minutes. What happened?

Speaker 2: 36:53

What happened? Did they walk off?

Speaker 3: 36:56

I'll tell you, I won't mention any names. I got a call from the client. I put them in for a perm interview and they said we're hiring this guy perm. Actually, that guy would really like him and we've got a contract position and you'd think he'd be interested. So I closed the hell out of this candidate and convinced him. They called me after an hour and said well, let him go. And I said what candidate? And convinced him. They called me after an hour and said we'll let him go. And I said what happened. He said well, he arrived and, um, one of the girls uh, from the team was taking him up to the floor where he's going to be working and tried to take him up the stairs and he forced her to go up in the lift with him and said the view was great from the lift and there's no windows in the lift and he was being amazingly inappropriate. Oh no, oh no. So that was the end of my temp career you're like I'm not going near that again yeah yeah, um, what, what, um, how?

Speaker 1: 37:52

is there anything else that you would leave our listeners with in terms of advice and guidance for those that aren either aren't doing something particularly well or are wanting to do it and wanting to do it well?

Speaker 2: 38:06

oh yeah, there's so many things um really there really is.

Speaker 2: 38:11

But I guess one thing is the process is quite different, right? So with typically recruiters here, they will do a reference on offer, a reference check. So my thing is if you are running a workforce, I need to know who's in my fleet. They would be reference checked already, right? I think that's quite important because, again, it's not overlaying that PERM thing over, because if you're going to send them to work, I want to know that they can definitely do that job, because otherwise it's my reputation.

Speaker 2: 38:44

So, and I know sometimes they think, oh, it's just temp, so we don't even reference, check them. And I tell you it scares the hell out of me because I'm like you don't know what you're doing. You know, because once you lose trust with the client and the temp, and it's not really fair because imagine if you're the temp and you get sent to a job that you can't do right, it's not fun and totally unfair. You should be put in that situation. So yeah, just what's that I?

Speaker 1: 39:13

got put in um last minute like go and go and do this job because you know our temps let us down and sometimes they used to get sent out as a member of the team and I got sent into this HR position and I didn't know anything about HR at all and I was looking at all this stuff, these allocation of stuff. I had no idea what I was doing, absolutely no idea what I was doing. I lasted a couple of days and then apparently they phoned and said I don't think she knows what I was doing. Absolutely no idea what I was doing. I lasted a couple of days and then apparently they phoned and said I don't think she knows what she's doing.

Speaker 2: 39:42

Yeah. Well, it's more than 53 minutes. Right Exactly.

Speaker 3: 39:48

They've been trying to get me to teach retain for three years now. I do know, I do know about retain.

Speaker 1: 39:55

Thank you, Okay, I do know, I do know about the 10. Okay, and for those people that are listening to this and thinking, I'd like to know more, what can you do, or what are you happy to do, to help people that might want to speak to you, sophie, or spend some time with you? How can they get in touch with you? And is that? Would that be okay?

Speaker 2: 40:19

Yeah, for sure, you know I talk to people a lot, so and I think after you and I chatted, I had a couple people contact me from the state, so that must be your doing.

Speaker 1: 40:27

I would say to people look.

Speaker 2: 40:28

I don't know if they read, but if they read then my book is probably a good place as well, because I've written it a little bit like a manual. I know that some people actually use it a little bit like a manual. I know that some people actually use it a little bit like a blueprint. But I'm very happy to have a Zoom chat with some, you know, if they just want to know either how do we even start if they don't have anything, or how do we grow it if they have something.

Speaker 2: 40:49

Because, often people get stuck at different stages as well, and over here I don't know how it is in the UK, but over here there's a lot to do with compliance now as well, so there's a whole onboarding work, health and safety piece as well. It's not like the old days where we can just say oh yeah, I'll send you someone tomorrow. Like you know, there's things that you have to do in advance, but they're really good BD opportunities, though Carry on.

Speaker 1: 41:19

Please, please, carry on. I don't want to upkeep you.

Speaker 2: 41:23

No, no, I was just going to say that they're really good BD opportunities. Though to say to a client, if you think that they might need temp at some point, is why don't we get all that stuff out of the way? Let me come and have a look at your workplace, because all those things we kind of have to do, tick boxes on those, now right. But your workplace, because all those things we kind of have to do, tick boxes on those now right. But then once that's done, then yes, I can send you a tip tomorrow if you need a tip tomorrow. So, um, yeah, it's just a really good bd thing as well, and bd is very pertinent in our market here. I think in yours as well, right?

Speaker 1: 41:54

for those of you that are listening and haven't seen me hold it up, the title is the Secrets to Running a Lucrative Temp Desk by Sophie Robertson, and it is available on.

Speaker 2: 42:04

Amazon. Is that right? Yes, it is. I have to say, though, that someone said to me because you know you don't control the prices on Amazon and that it's in the UK was very expensive, although other clients said you know what it's worth every cent, every cent. Just buy it.

Speaker 1: 42:20

but you can also get it from my website, which is unique coaching as well okay um, I think we can share links with the podcast, um, but or those of you that uh can't get in touch with.

Speaker 1: 42:32

So, for whatever reason, reach out to us and we'll we'll put you in touch uh, thank you it's been the first chat that I had with you was so enlightening and I loved it so much and reading the book, I couldn't stop reading it. I started reading and I was like actually it's fun. It it reminds me of the fun that I had in uh, in temp, and then the fun that I had with the contractors at ExxonMobil and reminds me of how different they are, and it's so good to re-appreciate the different skill sets. So I'm really grateful for you spending time with with me and for spending time today with Jordan and I and our listeners, and thank you in advance for the help and any guidance that you can offer the people that reach out to you.

Speaker 2: 43:15

Thanks for inviting me on. It was fun and thanks, rod, for recommending that we get together, and I think also david right, david wilson, home david wilson home.

Speaker 3: 43:23

Yeah I think people have been conspiring to get us together yeah, me and lou are back in sydney in may, so I think there needs to be a dinner on the cards. Oh yeah, let's do it sounds

Speaker 1: 43:34

I would love that I'd really love that. That sounds great. Thank you very much. Thanks, yay, see you soon.

Speaker 2: 43:43

All right, thanks a lot.

Speaker 1: 43:45

See you bye well, that's another episode of retrained search the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, linkedin controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearchcom. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi, we don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is.

Speaker 1: 44:17

We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. We have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our Search Mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search the podcast.