Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead oh my god, you look so pro fucking hell look at that. We're just sat here with our zoom rooms on like at home, and there's Heesh in his bloody podcast studio with his big mic on and all it's just the office.

Speaker 3: 0:39

I've just got it on the mic on the office obviously like you guys do a lot of the training and stuff.

Speaker 2: 0:46

So yeah, that's like the next level though my wife walked into um my office about three or four weeks ago and saw me looking at like podcast mic holders, arms I don't know what you even call it and um her words were don't you fucking dare, why don't you go put in a podcast arm across our joint office is what she said fair, if it's not your office, then she has a say she does have a say yeah, I've been trying to remove that say for a while, but it's just increasing how are we both?

Speaker 1: 1:24

yeah, yeah, really good. Thanks, very good. It's been so long, though it's been so long since I saw you. I think the last time that I saw you properly, we were like in person, in london yeah, probably and I think I can't even remember why or how we'd been at a client site, or I can't remember I think we just met to go for some dinner or something.

Speaker 3: 1:47

I think it was when you was working with IDEX yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Were you working with IDEX too, then is that how we met?

Speaker 3: 1:56

I was trying to remember how we met uh, we met at a powerhive event and then we worked together on the personal branding stuff yes, that's right.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Well, I mean, you were like the reason that I started doing linkedin stuff and started doing linkedin videos if it wasn't for you the world would not have the pleasure of listening to my dulcet tones all the bloody time, as everyone tells me that they see me more than they see their wife, because they see me in the so often, so often. It's really nice to see you and it looks like you've been doing some really cool stuff too. Yeah, it does Like Hector. That's changed because Hector wasn't Hector.

Speaker 3: 2:34

Yeah, it was called Recruitment Mentors.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Yeah, and it's still the same as in the training platform that's fed by the Recruiters Center.

Speaker 3: 2:43

Yeah, yeah, we just moved every, all of, we just moved everything on to um like an improved platform. So I sort of coincided that with like a rebrand and also wanted to make it a bit more clearer from like the podcast which is called recruitment mentors podcast, and the sort of online training solution very cool, very cool.

Speaker 1: 3:03

Well, thank you very much for joining us and thank you for those of you listening for joining us. Um to the. We're trained no, we're trained search the podcast we don't even like. We're very good at remembering what it's even called. Heesh, you're much more of a pro than us, um, but we are told that people do listen to it. So we're carrying on doing it and carrying on sharing our stuff, um, but we've been up since a stupid o'clock this morning, so we're carrying on doing it and carrying on sharing our stuff, um, but we've been up since a stupid o'clock this morning, so we're both feeling uh, like it should be about seven o'clock at night our first webinar started at 6am this morning.

Speaker 2: 3:35

Oh really, it felt like a really good idea at the time of planning this is what for australia, or something? Yeah, so me and lou go to australia on saturday, um, we're running an event out in australia. We're talking at the rcsa's event out in australia too, yeah, so we thought it'd be a good idea to do a webinar for all of our australia listeners, um, but it didn't feel, as I say, so bright I didn't feel like a good idea.

Speaker 1: 4:01

Have you been over that?

Speaker 3: 4:04

no, it's like I. I had a live podcast event planned in Sydney, but that was the year that COVID happened, so it didn't happen. But I definitely want to make that happen for sure.

Speaker 1: 4:14

Yeah, we're looking forward to it. We've been working with people over there for so long and not been over, so it's about time it should be really good. So I guess the way that we kind of roll with this is just to let it flow. But we do cover a couple of things as we go through, like what we've been helping people with, and I'd love to find out a bit about what you've been helping people with too. Um, but I thought, because we never talk about market trends and the market itself, I thought you might be a good person to actually do that with, because you get a really good view, because you're speaking to different recruiters and business owners and leaders all the time. What are you seeing in the market? What are you experiencing at the moment?

Speaker 3: 5:00

so the way that I've been been describing q1 to people is I found it to be 50% of founders that I spoke to were having record moments, record quarters, and then the other 50% of people that I spoke to were saying it was a really challenging period for them. So I found it to be 50-50. Been more like 75 80 towards like optimism, positivity, like seeing some really good markers of like things, picking up those types of things, and then 15 20 percent of people saying it's still challenging. Um, I think the only other thing worth sharing would be definitely the most common industry or niche that has come up that people view to be, like you know, great potential is renewables, um, sustainability, like that. That pocket um tends to be like a very common area. Then you've obviously ai is getting a lot of funding that that comes up, uh, quite a bit.

Speaker 3: 6:00

Um, I'd say a lot of recruitment companies that I speak to uh are less and less like local specific, just maybe because of the types of people that I speak to. But I think a lot of companies are thinking about how can we not have all of our eggs in the uk basket? Obviously for some, for some companies who are local and based in the northwest recruiting the northwest. They might not be thinking how they can do what they do in the northwest in mainland europe or the us or whatever, but I do think more and more companies are thinking about how can we diversify, and the most popular area for that is the us. Um, because the way that I describe it to people is it's just as hard, but the rewards are like two times bigger yeah, so they're probably the things that are worth sharing.

Speaker 1: 6:46

What would you say to that, george? Is that what we're going to?

Speaker 2: 6:49

agree. You spoke to me a couple of weeks ago and said the last year has definitely been difficult. Yeah, we know that a lot of the markets have been tough for a lot of firms and me and lou always try and remain glass half full. But we've noticed the past month or so we haven't even need to try and remain glass half definitely a shift in tone of conversation, in optimism. People are seeing green shoots, um, and that kind of aligns, doesn't it? Remember what that pe guy said to you, was it? Paul press spoke to the pe guy yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:24

He said um, I think I think my mic is going to run out of battery. That shows you how long I've been on course, or that I've literally done the whole day's work already and my mic, uh, microphone, is going to give up, so I might plug something else in. Anyway. The guy said, um, it was at the back end of last year, wasn't it? And he said it's going to be fine. They've just announced a recession and you might have heard that already, because you're the guy who knows stuff like this. But I was like, could you help me out with that please? And he said well, as soon as they announce it, it has to be at the bottom. For them to announce it, you have to have two clear quarters in recession before they will actually confirm that they're in a recession. And by the time they've announced it, history shows that you're on the way out of it. And that was at the back end of last year. And I agree. I've I've experienced the same thing in the first quarter, that you either speak to someone that's had a record quarter or you speak to someone that is crying. I've literally had people crying on the phone to me because it's been so difficult and I haven't like it's been so difficult because it's completely polar and now is more consistency around people saying that they're winning work again. So I agree, I'm the same as you and here's where we share a little bit of that good news, because we just take a moment to share with the people that are listening, our listeners, what's been happening, and I'm just going to share my screen for those that are watching the video and I know some of you aren't, so I'll read it out that are watching the video, and I know some of you aren't, so I'll read it out. Aaron in the mastermind just announced that he has exceeded his minimum target number for the year, so he's one of those which is smashing it with a quarter to spare in the face of a continuously tough market. So he's done really well.

Speaker 1: 9:24

Yeah, this is a lovely opportunity that I've been helping Abhi with, so he says hi, team. Just as a background. We do a lot of retained work. I joined the course to learn new things that I might not have tried and to close more deals. The course templates and calls have been very helpful and I'm thankful it's all good.

Speaker 1: 9:41

I've been pushing a large deal with a billion dollar organization. We've done a lot of work towards it. Went to a trade show, multiple discussions and they've got a referral into the VP of HR Competitor was Korn Ferry. The executive team weren't keen to use them, so they have got a chance. So he was asking the question how do we price up the multiple hires and how best do we win it? So I've been helping him once in a while and we're now at a proposal stage. So we haven't won it yet, but we're getting there.

Speaker 1: 10:16

This is Abby, just saying Corbyn's super helpful terminology you need to use and say thank you to me because I care about what we're doing, which I do. Um, and say thank you to me because I care about what we're doing, which I do. And then ross launched his first webinar yesterday, partnered with the international society of farmer engineers and created a series of round tables, and ross is also in the mastermind. The first three will be online and then a fourth in-person event, and just want to say thank you, uh, to the mastermind members oh this is a nice one, isn't it george?

Speaker 2: 10:46

yeah, simon. So simon um joined us probably a year ago. He's just rejoined us, having, he says, having re-engaged with retrained. It seems the magic has reworked and then there we might steal some of that time I know and on the back of the first piece of work run from a 15 plus year contingency client. Thanks to my first alliance with Retrained, I signed up again with Retrained and within days signed up two more. Thanks again for the magic.

Speaker 1: 11:13

Very nice.

Speaker 2: 11:14

Works.

Speaker 1: 11:16

Oh, this is the first one, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 11:19

Yeah, this is TJ. Yes, TJ. Tj's got a great background. He's former CHRO but new to recruitment. Um wanted to share that. I pitched a retainer to a client on Wednesday. We briefly performed a contingent search in the past, but they hired someone on their own. That person didn't work out, which is why they've reached back out, happy to share. They've agreed to a third payment on commencement. Tj not from, we're two-thirds due at the end. Not exactly what we'd aim for, but it's a start and at least we get to go to the market as retained. They were sold on the idea that we will have the availability in time to dig deeper in our search to find the right candidates for them. Nice, not bad for your first one.

Speaker 1: 12:00

Really good. So there's a little bit of positivity.

Speaker 2: 12:05

Can you still?

Speaker 1: 12:06

hear me, okay, by the way, yep, loudly Cool, a little bit of positivity to get you through the next couple of weeks. And now here is where we like to share with what we've been helping people with, and I'd love to find out, obviously, from you, george, what you've been helping people with, because I don't actually know what you have been doing, because this is usually the only time we actually get to talk to each other because we're so busy, and he's what you've been helping people with too. Um, and what you know what's been helping move the needle for people in their businesses. Uh, what have you been helping people with, george, recently?

Speaker 2: 12:38

I think, in line with the more positive feelings, um, there's been a lot of delivery going on, which is good because that means a lot of people are winning. I'd say the big trend that, um, we see when people make mistakes in delivery is they're very reactive in terms of that delivery process. Yeah, just this week I had four or five members on the call out call that were having slight troubles in the delivery process and it all all could have been prevented if they'd have dealt with this at the beginning of the briefing call. And you made a point in your letter. We give people the agenda, we give them everything they need.

Speaker 1: 13:17

Yeah, literally a fail-safe way of setting the project up for success in the briefing call.

Speaker 2: 13:26

Sometimes they just need to be bitten on the ass I think, yeah, they just because they don't use it.

Speaker 1: 13:29

Sometimes they just don't use it first time around. I don't know, but you probably find the same thing. He. She can tell someone to do something, but they don't always. They don't always do it and you're like but if you just did this, everything would be fine. Do you have the same sort of thing he's?

Speaker 3: 13:45

yeah, I mean, implementing and embedding training is an interesting one.

Speaker 1: 13:49

So it's like an ongoing.

Speaker 3: 13:50

It's an ongoing thing yeah, it totally is.

Speaker 1: 13:53

What have you been helping people with? What's been um, what's been moving the needle for people that you've been working with?

Speaker 3: 14:00

systems and processes. A lot of companies that we partner with between five and thirty heads have aspirations to grow. A lot of companies that we partner with between five and 30 heads have aspirations to grow. A lot of the time why they struggle to go there or they're a bit of a yo-yo business that get to certain headcount numbers and then back down and back up is because they don't have repeatable processes. A lot of the way and how they do things is in people's heads.

Speaker 3: 14:21

Yeah, so a lot of people think we'll worry about this when we get to a certain stage, but a lot of the founders that I speak to I sort of say that the best thing that you can do is have you know systems and processes for a 15-20 person company before you're there. That's what's going to make your life a lot easier. So, yeah, been helping founders think about how they can get a lot of the things that are you know in their heads out of their heads into you know their internal way of doing things. Call it a playbook, processes, whatever, um, but really, uh, help them understand how they can get more consistent performances out of their team, and oftentimes it's those types of things that can really help people get there and, interestingly, that briefing meeting agenda is just one of those.

Speaker 1: 15:06

It is one of those that forms part of a process. You put it in and you mitigate the risks of the project going wrong. You put it in, you make sure it's consistent and you consistently mitigate against the risks. But somebody has to actually follow that process and use that as part of the process and, like you say, that's that's the hard bit is implementing it and getting the consistency that you need a lot of people don't have systems yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 15:35

Um, what have I been helping people with?

Speaker 1: 15:37

Um, well, it's funny because it's kind of similar.

Speaker 1: 15:40

So the last couple of mastermind coaching calls I've done, I've been doing an audit of their, of their sales process and examining, you know, things like the conversion rate, the meeting and pitch to win ratio, and then examining what steps exactly they're using, because what often happens is they come through the foundation course, they start winning retainers and it all starts kind of flowing down its own way and then they they're doing things their own way, they're bringing in new stuff and that's great.

Speaker 1: 16:10

They're kind of, you know, building an airplane and flying it around and, as someone described it recently, and then when they join the mastermind, they want to go further and they want to improve. But what they've done in that time is like change things and some things have kind of fallen by the wayside and you know, things like sending proposals tends to creep in and you find that people are sending proposals again and that's a big thing that I often helping people to take that out of their process, so they're not sending proposals. I see I've been doing audit of process and optimizing, you know, conversion and sales rates at each stage, which has been really nice so curious, then what would you say is the most ideal sales process to win retainers consistently?

Speaker 1: 16:51

I mean it's a big process so I won't go through it all. Well, what?

Speaker 3: 16:54

the what, this, what the like company, because I think that's interesting. Like what? What are the typical steps? Not in terms of what happens at each step, but what are the steps typically?

Speaker 1: 17:03

yeah, so I mean, we've just done a webinar on it this morning actually. Yeah, the first thing is, you know don't don't do it over the phone uh that the first step is actually in either an in-person meet or a zoom meet, that there's a diagnostic, and that's often missed out in a contingent process like a full diagnostic.

Speaker 2: 17:22

So what a discovery call yeah, yeah, because it isn't always the right solution. Right, and I think when it's done well, it doesn't feel like a cell the analogy that um I always use to our members. He says it's like when you go to the doctor, right, when you walk into the doctor. If the doctor didn't ask you a single question, just tried to prescribe you some medicine, I probably wouldn't have much faith in that recommendation. But first what they do is understand what's going on, what's the pain, how often you feel it, what are the symptoms. They diagnose the problem and then they recommend the solution.

Speaker 1: 17:53

And I don't feel like I'm being sold to right, I go home and I trust it because they carried out the diagnostic and because normally, as a contingent recruiter, you you trained and you programmed and I know this because I was too, and Jordan knows this because so was he to go in and find out the need. What do they actually need, how many do they need, how often do they need them and what's that going to look like for us in terms of future opportunity? Further than that, and say, well, hang on, before we go into the need, tell me about well, you first as a person and how you are, where you are and what's working well for you, but also the business. You know where are we. And sometimes you get that as you get better as a consultant. You get good at doing that, but it's the diagnostic around talent acquisition that you very rarely do as a contingent recruiter.

Speaker 1: 18:42

So how are you getting on from a talent acquisition perspective? How is talent acquisition going for you in general? And then diving into what works well, what doesn't work so well, what methods are you using, what processes are you using, what's working and what's not working, and finding out. And then you get a mixture of responses. Some they try to do themselves if they're small businesses, some they're using their networks if they're startups, and some have maybe started to use agencies, big companies, and they've got a PSL and completely different. But the important thing is like what the diagnostic around what's working and what's not working because there's always problems and in the difference in the retained solution cell is is identifying the problems in the talent acquisition process in general, not going straight to the need and then finding out what they need and then sending cds to it the best example of that lou um.

Speaker 2: 19:37

lou came to meeting with me when I first started working with her and it was a division of bosh, and I've worked with these guys for like three or four years and every time I've just taken the brief on the specific role that they needed help with. And Lou came with me and kind of demonstrated asking these deeper, more strategic, consultative questions. Within 20 minutes it was like, yeah, so basically every year we have to hire 60 graduates and we have no idea how to hire them, where to start. It keeps us awake every night. It was a huge piece of work potentially, and I'd spent three years not even knowing that.

Speaker 1: 20:11

yeah, and that wasn't the requirement that we went in to go and talk to them about. We ended up with that requirement on a retained basis because, lo and behold, in the past when they'd gone to market for that position, it hadn't gone particularly well on a contingent basis, so it didn't make sense for us to recommend that route again. But if I'd been a contingent recruiter, as I was trained originally, I would have taken that requirement and said, yes, we can do better than all the other agencies just because we're better and gone, send CVs to it and not identify the bigger opportunity through the bigger questioning or the fact that every time they go to market for that position they don't have a particularly good time. So I wouldn't have been able to converse it to retained. So that's just one of the steps in the process. I think I can carry on I'd actually.

Speaker 3: 20:52

I'd actually argue, great contingent recruiters do that um, yeah, some of them do.

Speaker 1: 20:58

They find out about the business and they find out about the person. We normally find that the questions around the methods that they are using are the bit is the bit that's missing. So how do you, how do you go about talent acquisition? What methods do you use? What works well for you? And then, diving even deeper into the methods, so they say, oh well, we, you know, we're this, know this kind of positions. We take to market directly and we advertise and our talent team does it. This kind of position, we use agencies. And then, great, how does that go for you? What works well, what doesn't work so well? And you get a kind of mix, normally a mixed bag.

Speaker 1: 21:38

There Some things are working well, some things aren't. These kinds of positions are quite easy. These some things aren't. These kind of positions are quite easy, these ones are quite hard. Tell me about that then. What are the challenges you face? Well, it's difficult, it's tight, skills are short, you know it's competitive. And how do you get on with positions in that space? Well, they take a bit longer and it can be difficult. We get offers declined.

Speaker 1: 21:58

And do you mind me asking what basis you're engaging with the agencies for that type of appointment. Those are the questions that contingent recruiters tend not to ask, and that's the difference, because that's when they say, oh well, what do you mean? And you say, well, are you retaining them? And they normally go no, because clients look at you like you're an idiot if you ask them if they're retaining at that, particularly at those levels which are normally not very senior, and then they've just told you that they're struggling with it, it's difficult, it's taking longer than they need and they're using a contingent model, and that's all I need then to be able to think okay, well, I can see what's happening here.

Speaker 1: 22:37

The contingent model is falling over where it gets difficult or niche or challenging or whatever. Because contingent, because they're only go, are only able to go so far, because they don't have any financial commitment. So when it gets really difficult and messy and tough and aged or um, on appealing, unattractive, they start to kind of lose the. You know the they'll move on to something else I do agree with each other.

Speaker 2: 23:02

There are some great contingent recruiters out there that are really consultative, that ask great questions, that build great partnerships yeah for me, you can win contingent work without doing that yeah it'd be very difficult to win consistent retained business. Yeah, yeah, I'd almost argue it's impossible to win consistent retained business if you're not having that consultative level of conversation and carry out a diagram, a diagram step yeah, and there's nothing wrong with winning contingent work and working contingent like I.

Speaker 1: 23:31

I think that's cool, lots of people love it. Lots of people love it, and there's loads of positions that it works perfectly well for, um, but some people want to do something different, and if they do, then that is one of the things that changes the path of the next bit of the conversation, because it's much easier for you to be able to say, okay, well, all those positions are working fine on a contingent basis, but you've just explained to me that these aren't, and I want to help you with what's, what's what you're really struggling with. So I'd like to help you with that. Let me walk you through how I'd like to do it. You see what I mean, and then I'd use visuals. You know a lot of the difference in the way that I found it more effective to pitch for retained work and partnership in that way is using visuals rather than just talking at them.

Speaker 3: 24:22

People don't buy what you say, they buy how you do it.

Speaker 3: 24:27

Like that, a lot of people, a lot of a lot of recruiters, are like just talking about what, like what you do, how, they don't talk about how.

Speaker 3: 24:34

But the reason why I mentioned that is because you know a lot of the recruiters that we have deliver training or I have on the podcast. A lot of them, um, don't do 100% retained, and a lot of them, because they've been doing it for such a long time over five years as a minimum, is typically the types of people that I'm speaking to or working with or whatever they do what you're talking about, they just don't package it up as retained, which I just find interesting, because they've got the relationships, these types of things, but they would have done all of those things or got better at those things over time. They just, I feel like a lot of people get comfortable with how they've worked with companies and how they've done it. So then to say, hey, louise, you know we've filled every single one of your last jobs, or 90 percent of them, and we've done it this way. Well, actually I want to talk about.

Speaker 1: 25:28

You know we, I mean, and I agree, I agree completely that, um, you know, especially after five years, you're in a groove of what, what's working for you. And I was exactly the same, like I think I was pretty good at contingent recruitment, I was a big biller, and so I mean, the only reason I got fed up with it was because I was tired, because you have to work a lot, because you work on stuff that doesn't result in a fee, and that was one of the biggest changes for me that I I really liked working on stuff that I knew was going to result in a fee. Um, but, but there is a bit of a step change in that and you, you can be really consultative and and then just take the brief and just go and work on it as you normally would, and and the step change is well, hang on a minute. Ok, we've filled 90% of your roles and that's been fine. But what about those 10% we didn't fill? Why didn't we fill them? Like what went wrong there? Because those are the problems that we can solve when we partner on a retained basis, all the stuff where it's working well, I would say like there's no reason to change it. There is a reason on our side. There's got to be um a driver on one side or the other. Either the client is saying this isn't working for me and there's 10 of my roles aren't getting filled. You need to fix it. Well, great, that's why I'm here. I feel the same way. I'd like to fix it. Let me show you how I can fix it. That's easy and that's all.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Almost always, the best way to get in with retained is to solve the most difficult problems that aren't being solved with the contingent model, instead of ignoring that 10% and going yeah, great, we're filling 90% of your roles. You go we're filling 90% of your roles, but we're not filling 10% of them and we want to fix that. So let me show you how we can do it. Or the other driver is that um, it's working for the client. The client's perfectly happy with what you're doing and maybe you're filling 100 of the roles, but you're killing yourself in the process because you're having to put all your time and energy and effort and if at any point, that client says, actually we've got a recruitment freeze on, you've got nothing, you've had no investment and no commitment and nothing to safeguard the the time that you've put in. If they give you a position, you work really hard on it and then they say, actually just stop there, put a pin in it you've had. No, it's risky. And so that's the kind of conversation that I'd lead with.

Speaker 1: 27:43

If it's that, if it's that situation instead, look, are you happy with what we're doing? Yes, brilliant, keep doing it. Yes, I want to keep doing it. But here's my problem. I'm in a position where I'm taking all of the risk on every single time that we see that we work together and any, and it's getting harder and harder. The market. I'm putting more and more time in. So I'm not suggesting I want to charge you more money, but a slight change in the payment model will enable me to carry on delivering the same service to you. Yeah, do you see what I mean?

Speaker 2: 28:14

emphasis on the client right the emphasis is. I want to keep delivering the level of service you become accustomed to. That's the reason I want to make this change, not for my benefit yeah, exactly, but do you want to ask a quick question?

Speaker 3: 28:27

no of course not because I really agree with you on the um, on the diagnostic, as being like one of the root causes, like one of the things that you can fix that, like downstream, from doing that right can result in the things that you're talking about.

Speaker 3: 28:44

Yeah, so I'm just curious because, like you said, that's often sometimes what's missed when you find yourself speaking to continued recruiters that want to make the change that they don't go that extra level. Yeah, so just curious to get your take because that's how I like my sales process in my business is that you have that diagnostic phase. Because how can I say that what we provide can help you if I don't fully understand you know how we've got to this point, what's worked, what hasn't like these types of things? Um, but what have you found to be the most consistent, compelling reason to say to a prospect? To say to a client who has become accustomed to speaking to someone it's fairly transactional yep, send me some cvs, you've got live vacancy, blah, blah. If you then try and get extra time from them or you know you're trying to get them to give you more time, so it's in their interest, like for the diagnostic, what have you.

Speaker 3: 29:36

I'm just curious. Like people are like what's the compelling reason?

Speaker 1: 29:41

the one that I get I end up at. The one that I really end up at is are you getting what you want when you want it, and is it an enjoyable process?

Speaker 1: 29:49

because, if you are, those are the three things that when I when you strip all this other stuff away that I'm trying to find out, those are the things that I want to know the answer to, because if they're getting what they want and they're getting it when they want it and it's an enjoyable process, they should carry on doing it right, because that is so rare in recruitment. It's so rare. I've never met anybody that says honestly, that said yes to those all of them just asking those questions and that's when you can get under the skin of.

Speaker 1: 30:18

They normally laugh at you when you ask that yeah, I mean, if you make you stand out yeah, I've always positioned it slightly differently.

Speaker 2: 30:26

I've always said at the start anytime a customer engages me with an opportunity or they need my help, I say I work with my clients in different ways depending on the circumstance and the opportunity. Thank you for thinking of me. Let me reassure you. I can absolutely help, but I need to understand a little bit more about the situation, what's going on, how you've dealt with this type of challenge in the past so I can ensure I recommend the right solution. And I need probably 30 45 minutes of your time to make sure I really understand what's going on here and then I I recommend the right solution. I need probably 30, 45 minutes of your time to make sure I really understand what's going on here and then I can recommend the right step forward.

Speaker 3: 30:57

Yeah, I really like what you just said, Lou. Do you know what I also think is a solution to this as well?

Speaker 2: 31:02

What.

Speaker 3: 31:03

Being willing to say no.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Yeah, and being willing to say, oh, it sounds like you're having a great time, I don't want to interfere with that and be willing to say, oh, it sounds like you're having a great time, I don't want to interfere with that. You know you should carry on doing what you're doing. Very best of luck if you struggle or you find that you need assistance.

Speaker 3: 31:18

You know where I am and they're like well, hang on a minute, yeah, exactly yeah. So you ask those questions, they answer exactly how you expect and they still go no, sorry, I can't give you the time. Then it's like are you brave enough to go? Okay, well, sure, it sounds like you know you're not really motivated to change, or you may not word it like that, but, like you know, if we're not able to do this, I'm probably not going to be able to help you offer the best solution. So walking away from that is super powerful, and I found that the best recruiters um, say no more than they do.

Speaker 2: 31:45

Yes, yeah, yeah yeah I remember when you trained me like I remember sitting in the office and you saying, yeah, just walk away and tell them.

Speaker 1: 31:52

no, I was thinking this woman's crazy Telling me to say no to everyone.

Speaker 2: 31:57

And yeah, as it happened over the next few weeks, they all started coming back, one by one.

Speaker 1: 32:04

Yeah, they do. And what often happens when you say, that's fine, you're obviously you're getting what you want. When you say, that's fine, you're obviously you're getting what you want when you want it, it's an enjoyable process. I I don't think that we should interfere with that or anybody should, because it's obviously working for you. They're normally like, well, hang on a minute. I mean, that's not to say there isn't room for improvement. You know there's always room for improvement. And then you're like, okay, right, well, tell me about that. Then where is that room for improvement? As soon as you get that, that chink, where there's room for improvement, then what I won't do is just be another supplier. Well, we could always do with some extra cds in the mix. No, thank you yeah yeah, um, okay.

Speaker 1: 32:43

So what do we talk about now, george?

Speaker 3: 32:46

sorry. No, you went sorry and I was asking you questions there.

Speaker 1: 32:48

Sorry, I was just for a while, so I was curious sorry, I can't have that, that's all right, that's okay, oh, you're so um.

Speaker 2: 32:59

Your tiktok's come up all the time on my tiktok and I'm gonna let my colleague matt know about that great right, really, really good, and the impression I get is that of all the people you have on, they're obviously all top performers and actually they'll work in different ways. Some do some retain, some do fully contingent, some spec out candidates. Different approaches, right. What's the common theme? You see across all of them as top performers.

Speaker 3: 33:28

So, yeah, I'd agree that they all have their own flavor of doing what they do, but I'd actually say most top performers do a lot of the same things, but maybe talk about how they do it slightly differently, or whatever. I'd actually say that there's a lot. There is a lot of similarities, right? So? So a couple of things.

Speaker 3: 33:45

I think I'm sure you run into this, but I think maybe the first thing to talk about is, like business development, consistently winning you know, clients, these things, because that that that's the most common skill gap that we're helping our customers with and I'm sure that often comes up time and time again for you guys in terms of like what, what are your biggest challenges, issues, etc. Etc. Is having a consistent pipeline of jobs that we know, that you know we can fill or place or whatever. So I'll be honest with you. I do think, consistently, the best recruiters I've interviewed or met or worked with, firstly, they actually truly understand what their ideal client looks like. A lot of recruiters don't like if you were to line up 10, 30 recruiters at random and say, talk me through what a dream client looks like for you in your desk in your niche, you'd probably be surprised how many people couldn't break that down like clearly concisely um, they understand, like the issues and problems that you know these companies have beyond the vacancy, beyond the the job at hand.

Speaker 3: 34:49

Like that is the most common thing. Like the, they do really try and you know, uh understand the impact that not have getting this person in or people in will have on the business and what it will mean if they do get them in. Um, I think the the best recruiters to build on that would describe themselves as, uh problem solvers and they sell solutions. That is, again, really common. I think the biggest bill is on my podcast um, don't do ones and twos or like they do fewer of those. Like the most common thing I've found is that these, these recruiters have landed some big accounts, some big enterprise juicy accounts that they've really worked hard to get around in that business, meet different stakeholders, get introduced, and that's then helped them build a huge contract book where they have 20, 30 contractors in that business, or it's meant that they've then won multiple hiring projects for the business over a long term. So I do think the best recruiters think about what they do in that way, or at least working towards that. Um, I think then, when it comes to like the candidate side. Actually, sorry final bit on the bd side, I would say that they're very aware that, like it takes multiple different ways to get in front of, like their prospects so that they don't get complacent with doing what's always worked for them. So I'd probably say that most great recruiters will describe their approach as a multi-channel approach. Like they use the phone, they email, they send linkedin voice notes, they send you know, loom videos or whatever. Like they have a multi-channel approach towards getting in front of people and then what is on what underpins that is a process. So, like the best, the best recruiters will have a process. So Lou is on my target client list and over the next six months, two weeks, 12 months, this is my plan to get a meeting with Lou or get in front of Lou.

Speaker 3: 36:44

Um, they're not just like I'm doing BD on Tuesday and then they're sort of like a rabbit in the headlights. They're just like I don't know, just calling their hot leads list or whatever. Like they have a, they have a strategy and that strategy probably falls into a few different buckets, one being like where could I get money quickly on the contingent side? What are the hot leads where? Where are live vacancies now that I could get stuck into that, I could make some money. Who are my dream clients? What's my sort of medium term, long term strategy for those clients? And they have different buckets and different processes for that. That is that comes up time and time again.

Speaker 3: 37:16

Um, and then the candidate side again, it's a bit similar in terms of they have a process around how they, um, how they, you know, tap into these networks and, you know, engage passive talent. They're not just reliant on in-mails or they're definitely not just posting jobs and, you know, going through that, like they're, you know, they've really tried to understand how they can get in front of these people and they play the long game, um, so, yeah, like there, there is a lot of like similar things. Um, and then if you do all of that right, you're getting referrals, you're asking for referrals, you, you get introductions, um, and it's a, it's a flywheel nice very nice, I love it.

Speaker 1: 38:00

So tell us a bit. Will you tell us a bit? Are you happy to share, like what heck? A bit more about what hector is for our listeners and how it works?

Speaker 3: 38:10

yeah. So hector inshore is, uh, an all-in-one training platform that is powered by current top performers. So where we typically find ourselves helping brand recruitment companies is reducing the time to competency. So that's typically can we help you reduce the time it takes for your new hires to do their first deal? Can we reduce the time it takes for your consultants to get to profitability, which typically means that I don't know how you guys feel about this, but a lot of companies that I still speak to mainly operate in a 360 way. So can we reduce the time it takes for people to do their first 360 deal or consistently be? Every business does it differently, but, like what is deemed profitable, like when is Lou the recruiter profitable? Is it that she's doing, you know, one or two 360 deals a month? Is it three, four, whatever? But normally we're helping companies reduce the time it's taking to get to profitability or competency.

Speaker 3: 39:03

And then the other thing, because of the size of companies, is then um, how can we take on some of the heavy lifting of upskilling, developing, coaching their teams, so their founders, the team leads, the billing managers, can spend time, or have more time to spend, on high leverage tasks? You know like, do we need to diversify our client base. What's our strategy to do that? I haven't got enough time with that because I keep getting popular to post with my recruiter that's struggling or whatever Like. Can we take on some of that heavy lifting so you have more time to spend on those tasks that are going to have 80 of an impact?

Speaker 3: 39:38

And then we do that through training and develop. Uh, development we deliver it in three ways um, probably a bit similar to to you guys in in some ways. So the first way is we have a growing library of um-sized courses, so they're no longer than 30 minutes, really easy to fit into a working day, working week. And then we have live masterclasses, so a bit like this webinar style, where they're a lot more interactive. And every quarter we have a face-to-face learning event that our customers can put their teams onto. So we've got the sort of free pillars and the big mission.

Speaker 1: 40:11

I'm sure you guys will resonate with this, but the big mission that I'm on is I really want to move the needle on changing the way recruitment is perceived in society, and I think how we can move the needle on that is by making training and education accessible to everyone yeah, very nice, I like it and we're on a similar mission because working in partnership on a retained basis to solve the problems where the contingent model doesn't I'm not, I don't think it should replace um contingent, I'm not one of those uh, you know, purists the thing that everything should be retained, but it does improve your client partnerships and deepen that relationship and therefore improve the perception and, uh, the industry.

Speaker 3: 40:49

Yeah, yeah, just by applying the right solution, you industry Improve the service levels. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:52

Just by applying the right solution, you know, at the right time. And do you still do some personal branding stuff? You're so good at that. I mean that probably runs through everything that you're doing. It's listening to you speak about recruiters that understand and truly understand their client and their challenges. I mean that was one of the first exercises that you did with my business. You know who are your target customers, what challenges are they having, how do we speak to that through what we're doing on social media and how do we get them to see that we resonate on the same frequency? Do you still do work like that?

Speaker 3: 41:26

I don't know I don't but we have training from recruiters.

Speaker 1: 41:29

That do it rather than me. But I bet it does run through everything, doesn't it? From a business development perspective it kind of underpins the whole strategy, really doesn't it?

Speaker 3: 41:41

Yeah, I mean how like it's. So it sounds basic, but, like I said, like how can you yeah, like, how can you build a business, you know, create the right solution if you don't truly understand who that needs, like the problems of the people that you're solving that for or who you're trying to, you know, get in front of with your content? Yeah, you've got to reverse engineer it from like who can you actually help?

Speaker 1: 42:05

Yeah, yeah, totally Okay. Cool, and I think we sometimes talk about something controversial just before we finish I don't know whether I've seen anything controversial recently, though what on linkedin? Yeah, we normally pick up on something that's a bit controversial and have a little unpick of that.

Speaker 3: 42:27

Okay, so let me throw this out there, then you can tell me what you think?

Speaker 3: 42:30

yeah, go on so something that come out of a recent podcast episode and it really got me thinking. It's so easy to compare yourself to other people and what are we doing, or what can you do personally consciously, to make sure that you're not being pulled in all these different directions because of what you're consuming online, particularly LinkedIn? Like you know, I run a recruitment business and I see on my newsfeed every time I go in there people have record months, record quarters and I'm thinking we're not having that, like, what's wrong with us? What are we doing wrong? Like, am I in the wrong market with us? What we're doing wrong? Like, am I in the wrong market? Are they doing things better than me? They're doing things differently, um, and I just think, like I'm, I'm very conscious of, you know, although you know I want to try and inspire as many people as possible and share things that really helpful for people, but I've also got to be aware that could the content be pulling people in those different directions that maybe they shouldn't be going in or be aware of that.

Speaker 3: 43:29

So I don't know how you guys think about that, but it's very easy to compare yourself and like how you're getting on and I think what you need to get good at, which I'm always trying to make sure that I do. Some months I'm do a better job of it and not, but I think it's really important that you have the self-awareness to know like what you want or like what is important to you, because I think if you just go or if you just log into LinkedIn every day, like you could very easily be, you know, persuaded maybe in directions that aren't actually true to you and what you want, and it's really important that you understand what that is. I think LinkedIn you it's tough, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 44:33

because I think, um, we like to try and share positive news when we can, but we like to do it in a way that just encourages other people and shows them that it's possible. We like to do it in a way that just encourages other people and shows them that it's possible, but it, but it. But I agree with you linkedin isn't the truth, because it can work the other way too, right, like I? Um, I was talking to lou earlier this week and I said in april, we're about 700 up on where we were last year. Yeah, our last april was an absolute shitter, right, it wasn't good, right. But actually we kind of reflect the recruitment industry in a way, as I'm sure you do right, in terms of when the markets are good and they're picking up, we're busier, and when they're struggling, it's a little quieter. I was hesitant to put that out there because I don't want to sound like an arsehole, right, I don't want to sound like I'm just being braggy, but actually so I think, yeah, it works both ways.

Speaker 1: 45:31

I think some people are too scared to share their wins and successes, and some people yeah, some people really are very scared to share their wins and successes and are nervous of sounding boastful or braggy, and some people just aren't nervous about it at all. I think what is so true what you say, but there's a few things like wrapped up in there for me. One of them is I always remember that visual of whether it's below a waterline or a circle of all the things that are shared on Instagram or on social media, and then there's like a really small dot. It's like the things that are shared on instagram or on social media, and then there's like a really small dot. It's like the things that are true, yeah, and the things that you don't share and and it's linkedin's the same like who's gonna put out there that? You know I'm on the verge of bankruptcy and and divorce as a result of my failing business.

Speaker 1: 46:22

It's so shit like that's just not what people are going to share, even though it stuff like that is happening and people are having a really hard time. So you only see the really good stuff and so I'm with you. It's all got to be taken. Knowing that 50% of all the stuff that gets shared isn't of isn't shared is not as rosy as the stuff that gets shared, and knowing that it isn't all. It isn't the truth.

Speaker 1: 46:46

There's loads of people having a really hard time too, and then the other piece that you pick up on is, you know, knowing what you want and trying to stay focused on what the life that you want to create for yourself not not not a life that you believe you should create, because that's what other people are selling the dream on, that they've got a fancy car or, you know, a house in Spain or whatever, or a boat, whatever it is that they're doing and thinking, well, that that's my, that's my success and I need to get there, and that's at that point I'm going to be, you know, know, successful or fulfilled, and I think it's very hard to stay. You know all their growing businesses. A common one for me is I get people coming to my mastermind going. I really want to be really good at this and I want to build a profitable business, but I don't think I want to scale and I'm like, that's okay. Just because everyone else is scaling doesn't mean you have to scale like and being able to to.

Speaker 1: 47:43

And I think the older you get you know I'm older, um the the clearer that becomes for what you need and what the life that you want to create. That's going to create the, the, the contentment for you, and it makes it a lot easier to live into that because you can. You can kind of stay blinkered to yeah, okay, he's got a boat. Yeah, okay, they've got a house in spain. Yeah, okay, they've got whatever. I don't need that for my happiness and my contentment. I know what I want and this is what it looks like and I'm living into that. So I agree with you like, the earlier that you can get to know yourself and what feeds your soul and what fills your cup and makes you content, the better and the more you can live into the life that you want to create and not get distracted by people scaling businesses and doing the things that actually aren't the things that are going to make you happy, the better and the more fulfilled that you'll be yeah, yeah I don't know if you'd sorry I

Speaker 3: 48:45

was gonna say I don't know if you'd resonate with this, but, um, yeah, I've just been thinking about it quite a bit and like, whenever I don't know if you guys can relate to this, but whenever, um, I felt like really low levels of motivation or I'm finding it really challenging it's often because the last time I sort of recalibrated or looked at what I'm doing, what I'm doing what's important to me, it's been a little while.

Speaker 3: 49:14

So I think that that's the other thing that I'm being mindful of is making sure that I do sort of I make myself aware of what's important to me in these things, cause you can can you can find yourself just going about day to day, thinking about the challenges right in front of you.

Speaker 3: 49:27

You know those sorts of things and you know not look at like why you're doing what you're doing and check in with that. So I think that that's something that I'm I'm looking just to sort of bake in. You know my, my weeks, or at least you know the very least my months of like you know, why am I doing what I'm doing, what am I focused on? Because as soon as I come back to that, you just feel like lighter and you feel like yeah, I'm on the right path of what I'm doing. I think the other thing that really helps me I don't know what you think about this as well is, um, just remembering that now isn't forever. Yeah, I say that to founders a lot like even though and I'm sure you've felt in your business that, even though you've been called retrained and that's the name that stays at the top of the door you can actually have different, entirely different businesses and it still be called retrained.

Speaker 3: 50:14

So, I think that's the other thing to remember as well. Like right now, over the next two years, if you have a young family and you want to be really profitable and you want to take dividends out and that's important to you, that doesn't mean it's going to be like that in five years. Like you can, I've literally spoke to people where it was like four people and then 10 years down the line as a 30 person company. So, like, remembering that, like now isn't forever and that that also, if I'm honest, like excites me because, like you, can have different businesses within the business, even though it's still called the same thing yeah, absolutely, and the reverse is true too.

Speaker 1: 50:44

But yeah, you see people at really interesting points of change, don't you? When you, when you work with them in that way and the decisions that they're making and quite a few people I've met had doing that, you know, done it the other way around. I've had bigger businesses and learned through that that that wasn't the route to their happiness and their contentment, and gone back from that under the same banner, under the same business, and now on a path that's true to them, and they've been down that path. You know, when you're early on in your career, then you haven't been that way and some people need to go that, that, down that route, and then go actually, oh god, you know, I remember one of the guys that we, um, did you work with some of them, or did you know we did? Did I talk to you about some of them? Heesh, when we first started.

Speaker 3: 51:31

I know who he is. He's like the king of information businesses.

Speaker 1: 51:34

He's like yeah he is a king of information businesses and he went down that journey too, because he got to like 20 million. He scaled and he had this formula in this process and it was fucking unbelievable. And he had the you know, the houses in wherever he is, miami, and the boats and the all the rest of it, and he wasn't happy, it was really unhappy and he completely dialed it back, cut the team back to like four people, went back to like four, five million. I mean, that sounds big to some people but to in context of where he had been.

Speaker 1: 52:05

And, yeah, I, I think it can take a bit of a journey to find, and that's that's life, isn't it? That is life, that's our journey, is to find out what is the path that to, to the route to filling our cup, and sometimes you have to go down the wrong ones and having that flexibility and that approach that you've just shared, like now, isn't forever. I think that's so helpful to, like you say, lighten, make you feel lighter about the journey and not worry that what you're doing now doesn't need to be what you're doing and probably won't be what you're doing in five years time or 10 years time. So I love it. I love it, but, george, you were about to say something too. I was going to say.

Speaker 2: 52:43

I remember a few years ago this was back to the kind of social media piece and seeing what everyone else is posting and thinking about, how should I be doing it differently and should I go in that direction? I just remember when I had my cancer, I worked with a mindfulness coach for six months and the one thing he told me every week is control the controllables, everything we've just talked about. The only thing you can control is yourself, yeah, and how you process that information, what you choose to do with it. So that would be how I'd approach that, I think control the controllables easy to say, sometimes hard to do.

Speaker 3: 53:18

Yeah, yes, but that is that. Yeah, I'm big on that. That's very much aligned with myself. Stoicism and like I really like stoicism. That really resonates with me and like, yeah, I actively don't read the news because of that as well. Um, these things. So it's just like, yeah, it is, it is interesting and the same as well. When we start this conversation about the market and these types of things, it's like I don't know like how helpful. Obviously it's good to be aware of it and understand, you know macro things that's going on, but how, how does it help me really understanding the intricacies of the current economic climate when I'm on a discovery called recruitment business, trying to figure out if our product can help them? It isn't. I can't control no, no, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 54:06

Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you and it's the main reason we don't really talk about it, um, but it is helpful to just have a brief conversation with you about it, because it's interesting occasionally to put your head up and go okay, well, is everyone else kind of feeling the same? Um, but we, I agree. I don't read the news either. I don't watch the news, I don't. I don't involve with it and, weirdly, more and more, the more people that I work with, the more I hear that. Now, in fact, my coach, rebecca, said to me the day she doesn't watch the news or read the news either, because I don't think it is how people call it new sober new sober we said that on podcast before oh, really I like that I've been new, so I've been new sober for three years I'm a tiktok

Speaker 1: 54:47

addict that's fine, that's different. That's not news. You're gonna be tiktok famous soon, aren't you jord?

Speaker 2: 55:00

that's the plan. It's a big commitment, though, isn't it like?

Speaker 1: 55:04

do you do tiktok heesh we have.

Speaker 3: 55:07

We have it for the, the podcast, um. But yeah, I think, jord, if you're going down that path, just just sort of brace yourself for the comments. The comment, the comment section is, is pretty brutal on that platform. Yeah, I'm overweight, you can say what you want, I'm comfortable. Yeah, I mean, they'll say all sorts mate, be prepared what's that?

Speaker 1: 55:35

some comments over yeah, nice, yeah, it's probably a good thing okay, well, that's all we've got time for, so thank you he so much for joining us. I love, um, the routes that we've been down and the stuff that we've explored, and I love what you're doing and how you're doing it, and I know that our listeners will benefit from talking to you. If you're interested in looking up heisha mazoo's and where can they find you linkedin yeah, that'll be the best place, yeah.

Speaker 1: 56:06

And hopefully you'll come back and we can catch up with you again soon and it won't be so long next time.

Speaker 3: 56:09

Yeah, sounds good.

Speaker 2: 56:11

Thank you, Hesham.

Speaker 1: 56:12

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 56:12

Todd, I'll see you in Melbourne.

Speaker 1: 56:15

Yes, you will See you in Melbourne.

Speaker 2: 56:17

See you in Melbourne.

Speaker 1: 56:20

Well, that's another episode of Ret retrained search the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, linkedin controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrained searchcom and don and don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi, we don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is.

Speaker 1: 56:50

We want to say a special thank you to our Retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our Search Mastery program that's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrain Search the podcast.