Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. It's nice to have you here. Thanks for joining us. So so, jordan, this is the first time I've kind of caught up with you properly for a little while. How are you?

Speaker 2: 0:29

I'm all right, I'm just that I'm freshly back from. It's my second holiday with a baby, but I'd say it's my first proper holiday with a baby. Yeah, never again what sandy nappies. Or either this year too many pieces of luggage. She's figured out how to have a tantrum, and by tantrum I mean like proper tantrum. Jesus, I'm talking like I'm out 4 30 am doing laps of a marina with the pram just to try and get to calm down at least it's a lap of a marina instead of yeah, you're right, yeah yeah, exactly yeah, we don't have any marinas in warrington so definitely, I was definitely abroad, um, but yeah, yeah, um, refreshed and recharged yay and how old is she?

Speaker 2: 1:16

seven months now. So we're just kind of getting beyond that stage. She's like she's not old enough yet to tell us what's wrong, but she's old enough that her tantrums to tell you there's something wrong. Yeah, they make a difference when she was that big and she'd cry. It was like just a little whimper, it was like it's all right, give her a rock and she's fine. Now it's like all hell breaking loose you have kids do you, don't you show I do.

Speaker 3: 1:41

Yeah, I should say good news is Jordan, it gets worse because she's not walking up and down the plane yet. No, totally.

Speaker 2: 1:55

It was funny because getting off the plane I was thinking and the guy behind me said, hasn't she been good? And I was like this is good. Oh god, I've got it all to come yeah, it definitely gets worse before it gets better.

Speaker 3: 2:11

Don't ruin the surprise no, very nice.

Speaker 1: 2:16

What have you been up to recently, joe?

Speaker 3: 2:19

uh, well, I've also just been away, which is nice have you?

Speaker 1: 2:21

where have you been?

Speaker 3: 2:23

uh, we, luckily we went to the mulbees actually for um, uh, for uh. Well, I was there for a week it should have been 11, 12 days but had a slight passport mishap before uh leaving. So kim went with millie, uh, who's three and a half, on the saturday, and leo, who's 18 months, and I caught them up on the wednesday. So I've got zero, um uh sympathy for you, jordan, because I did, um, yeah, 15 hour journey with an 18 month old on the way out there oh my god, it was um.

Speaker 1: 2:59

It was well worth it and completely my fault, but uh, yeah, it was all good what a story to tell, though, now yeah, I know what was the story, though dare I ask was it an expired passport or no worse, I left it on the train.

Speaker 3: 3:13

Uh, it was, uh, yeah, it was a cold.

Speaker 1: 3:17

Um, yeah, quite a mistake was kim patient and understanding in that situation, Joe.

Speaker 3: 3:23

I mean yes.

Speaker 1: 3:30

That's the right answer. That's the right answer, I think.

Speaker 3: 3:34

Yes, I was coming back from a trip to New York on a Thursday. We flew out on a Saturday. I left my passport on the train. On a Thursday, emergency appointment cancelled. Cancelled. Didn't happen. Didn't get my passport as I should. On the emergency appointment Saturday morning they promised me I was arriving on the Monday, so I changed my flights to Tuesday. It didn't arrive Monday or Tuesday, so we eventually went Wednesday.

Speaker 1: 4:00

Well, well done for getting there eventually, like you could have just given up, couldn't you?

Speaker 1: 4:05

I remember, um, I was going on holiday with uh, my boyfriend at the time, long-term boyfriend at the time with my parents and we got to the airport and I looked in my bag and couldn't find my passport anywhere. Uh, looked in everything, looked in the car and everywhere. In the end they had to go. Um, my parents went, we stayed behind, made an appointment, liverpool passport office down to the where it used to be on the seafront went down, queued up, um, got a new passport. It was two days. I had to stay over in liverpool to wait for it. The next day got back to the airport, went in my bag to get my passport and my old passport was in there. It was in my handbag the whole time. I can't tell you how many times I'd searched it and everyone else had searched it, but it was there, did?

Speaker 2: 4:52

you tell anyone, because I would. Yeah, I did. It just stayed in that handbag forever more yeah, I did.

Speaker 1: 4:59

I told them um, so that's not what I've been up to recently. I've been like, uh, cutting grass, cutting grass and streaming and stuff like that, which I'm not very good at doing, and I didn't even know how to work a lawnmower until recently. But you know, needs must, it's growing and there's no one around to cut it, so that's what I've taught myself to do.

Speaker 2: 5:20

You know you chose the country life I know, I know, I know.

Speaker 1: 5:24

If I'm not like riddling clinkers or siding pots or making fires or saving lambs, then there's me.

Speaker 2: 5:29

I always say joe, like when we have like if you have a monday morning meeting as a team, but it's like how's your weekend been? And I'm like busy, like I played golf on saturday and then I was at the football and then I looked after the baby for a couple of hours like it was hectic. How was yours lou? Yeah, I birthed 15 lambs, fed 300 chickens, um, I've groomed 15 horses, built seven fires, single-handedly looked after two kids and I'm like yeah, mine was actually quite chill, mine was a breeze, yeah yeah, it is like that.

Speaker 1: 6:02

I sometimes feel like that um, so let's have a look and see what our members have been up to, because they have been busy over the Easter weekend and the Easter week, haven't they? I've got to share my screen, but I have to read it out, because those of you that don't watch the video, you're driving along in the car or walking the dog. This one is what is this one? It is Tracy. She's won another search this week. Same client, so it's number four.

Speaker 2: 6:28

Nice, very nice yeah, I spoke to tracy last night and you can see her confidence. He had an update call with this client from one of the searches and she said halfway through the update call the client said can I just stop you and say to you and your team how wonderful this process has been? He said it's like nothing I've ever experienced. And he said she said honestly, I've never had that from a client like so openly wanting to be positive about the work so nice lovely well done, tracy.

Speaker 1: 6:59

Um, oh, this one is sonia. Uh, sonia says just a thought I had, fyi, just a little aside, I'm not looking to grow my agency to have multiple employees and, let's face it, quite a few of our members don't want to grow or scale. She says I use contractors for research on a project-to-project basis, but mostly I'm a one-woman shop. But my revenues went up from zero when I joined, Retrained to a projected 400k in 2024. That's nice, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 7:29

I'm not even like zero big fast as a shop.

Speaker 1: 7:32

Yeah, yeah, at that point it's just this one woman shop and this one is, uh, simon and Claire was just checking in to see how he is and whether he's got everything. Because that's what she does, because she's bloody brilliant like that, looking after everybody, all of you. He says really good of you to come back to me, claire. Yes, you're right, the CoLab calls are important, which they are, and engaging with others. It really is a great course and your support is brilliant. So shout out to Claire, who is brilliant.

Speaker 1: 8:02

Oh, here we go. This is the full, I think the full explanation from simon. He says I've just got off the phone with a client after discussing I remember this one, discussing with him the retained search process for recruitment. The company in question always uses three to six recruitment companies on a contingency basis and results are mixed. I mean, how common is that? That's pretty much every hiring company.

Speaker 1: 8:26

So much of the course and your videos where you're discussing retained search came up in our conversation the geographic area, non-hybrid working salary package, poor candidate quality, et cetera. The client is going to talk to the board and see if there's an opportunity to move forward and have a meeting. I know I've discussed retained search too early with the client. However, the client's asked me directly about the process and he showed genuine interest. The retained search course is brilliant, the detail incredible. There's a long way for me to go in terms of learning and becoming a fully fledged retained search consultant. However, this course is the beginning and you've inspired me so well done, simon. Lots of people jump in really quickly and just get cracking with it, and that's cool. Like we wholeheartedly applaud that.

Speaker 2: 9:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:07

This is a nice one, isn't it? Of Ryan's a rolling mapping service for succession planning and unit head level so they can have a warm talent pipeline for future replacements as needed. I know that area well and they are, uh, aging that population, that cohort the head of ta is. Imagine this being a monthly quarterly fee, but the only benchmark I have is a one-off mapping project. The advantages will essentially monopolize future gm, minus one appointments, and can replicate these models to other big companies, which, yeah, has anyone done this before? What's the best model and how's it priced? Very exciting little project that we've been pricing up so well done, ryan. Um, this is another ryan, isn't it? Do you know?

Speaker 2: 10:00

yeah, it is. And you know what? Ryan's not even a member of ours. He is an avid podcast listener, so hopefully he won't mind sharing this with you. An avid podcast listener and he's been to lots of our webinars in the past.

Speaker 1: 10:17

And he says the information you provide for free to the world is absolutely priceless. Lots of people say that I want to attend your course. It's not been in my budget. I continue to watch your webinars and do the best with what I said. Wanted to say thank you because today I landed my first retainer, like happy bloody days, hasn't spent a penny. I've pieced together a lot of information. I've learned and made it happen. It's a 30k total projected fee with a 10k retainer. I'm incredibly grateful for the information you shared changed my business. I want, I hope, to attend the full course. Take care and thank you again. Well done, ryan. Very good, I'm not. I'm not supposed to say that jordan takes a piss out of me saying well done nice work.

Speaker 1: 10:55

Um, oh god, there's so many. Everyone's been so busy. Let me fly through this one tokyo, this is a nice one. Pete's in japan. Um, thank you for everything.

Speaker 1: 11:04

The course has been great. I've learned so much, um, taking time to really digest, being such a new guys of the future. So, yeah, that's cool. You can either renew or you can go and put into practice what you've been learning and then come back at a later date if you want to, um, and he's gonna get cracking with what he's learned so far. Oh yeah, patrick, he's doing so well.

Speaker 1: 11:26

He says we received an email saying we were recommended to this company, along with three or four others in our sector. After two Teams meetings, a face-to-face and more phone calls. This morning we've just agreed to take on the mandate, which is our biggest to date. Along with this, we've been recommended to another firm in Europe who are in the mix for our first C-suite position. Another firm in europe who were in the mix for our first c-suite position, which is just brilliant, which could lead on to two or three a year. The reason for the post is what's changed in me is doing this course, confidence in myself and what we do, far more confident in delivery. When pitching uh, standing my ground I would normally be shitting myself when speaking at certain levels not anymore. Still a long way to go, but this past couple of months has seen a real change. It's starting to stick. It's so good.

Speaker 3: 12:09

It is.

Speaker 1: 12:11

And then I'll fly through the next ones. Landed Chief Police Officer um Retained. I landed the first executive level retained search since going through the training 30% fee. Total fee is over 100k Bloody hell. Well done, michael. Retainer won yesterday Only partway through the course, aiming to smash through the whole course and related materials over the Easter weekend. Secured the retainer with a senior candidate I placed years ago. This one was more about asking the question and being confident around delivering and then issuing the first invoice. This is Harriet with her emojis Term signed. First they paid with a new client for a sexy super yacht search. I love that.

Speaker 2: 12:50

You know, Harriet had me running around the marina last week taking pictures of super yachts to use on her.

Speaker 1: 12:56

Did she really, did she? Oh, that's so good, yeah, yeah, oh, this is a nice one for me. Uh, we're just scheduling a call and he says you're very talented and knowledgeable in this arena. So kind, you should be proud of yourself with the program you've built, and that's one of our members enjoying why does your mom email you, not just call you?

Speaker 1: 13:17

that is the kind of thing my mom says actually, and then finally, um, erin, hey folks, I'll be hosting my very first round table webinar in just under an hour. Wish me luck. See you on the other side. So that's what our members have been up to this week. Um, we're very proud of you all and we know that you listen to us, so that's cool. So what have we all been helping people with? Like, this is the stage where we like to get into under the skin of what. What we've actually been, what challenges we've been helping people through. We'll start with you, jordan. Then I'm keen to find out what you've been helping people with, joe, if that's okay. What?

Speaker 1: 13:50

have you been helping people with Jordan.

Speaker 2: 13:53

I think the main thing I'd say. This week there's been a theme of people probably pitching a little too soon and I've been helping them slow down into that diagnostic. Yeah, and one of the best ways I find to do that, I used um.

Speaker 2: 14:09

I like to consider myself a salesperson, so sometimes the mistake I can make is I tell I sell too soon yeah and what I did to get out of that habit was um, I started insisting on breaking my calls up into two, so I'd run the diagnostic in one call and then I'd come back and I'd pitch in the second call yeah did a couple of things.

Speaker 2: 14:31

Firstly, I found totally separated me from all the other recruiters that the customer was speaking to, because they were all pitching too soon and all of a sudden I became more consultative, more assured. I gave them time to slow down into it and consider things. The other thing it did is gave my ultimate recommendation credibility, because they knew I'd gone away and sat on it and slept on it and thought about things thoroughly and it also meant the pitch was a whole lot better too, because I had time to prepare, to practice, to get my ducks in a row, dot the i's, cross the t's.

Speaker 2: 15:07

So I'll tell you that's the main thing. I was helping them nice, it's just encouraging them to slow down and not feel like they need to rush into it. I actually, um, when I did this training all those years ago, I stopped targeting myself on pitches. Often I hear our members say well, I'm going to target myself on doing five pitches this week or five pitches this month or whatever that number may be. And you talk, don't you, lou, about if you work out your conversion rate, you can extrapolate it to I need to do X number of pitches to hit my target. I went one step further. I just target myself on diagnostics, because if I target myself on pitching retains of customers potentially I could end up pitching when it isn't needed. Yeah, so I actually know that if I do the right number of diagnostics, I know that more often than not the customer is going to be served by working on a retained basis and if I do the diagnostic well, I'm just going to naturally fall into a pitch anyway I love that really good, I really like that.

Speaker 1: 16:04

Thank you for sharing that with everyone, george no problem jordan what about?

Speaker 2: 16:08

you go on.

Speaker 3: 16:09

Oh yes, joe, I'm not supposed to be doing the questioning here, but no, it's fine I'm interested on that. Uh, how often would you not get to the opportunity to run that pitch call? If you split it in two, you've lost out time, killing deals and process has moved on and you've missed the opportunity to actually run that pitch call not very often.

Speaker 2: 16:31

Not very often.

Speaker 2: 16:32

Um, there would be occasions where a day later they'd say oh, we filled it internally, or and actually I'd probably never got to the point of signing the agreement anyway yeah but if I, if I do that diagnostic, well, if I create the pain and I kind of build that fire, when you do it, well, I find they're almost, they're on the edge, they're like they're desperate for that meat and they what you've done is really highlighted their need for a solution and you've put yourself in a position of authority where they feel you are the solution yeah, I can definitely see that, yeah, so I wouldn't go and wait like a week or two weeks.

Speaker 2: 17:08

I'm talking it might be that afternoon, it might be. We speak at 10 o'clock in the morning. I say I've got a gap in my diary. At four o'clock we jump back on there. You know, maybe it'd be the day after, but not, not often. And I found the ones that you do lose. I'd have probably lost anyway right okay, thank you.

Speaker 1: 17:28

So what have you been helping people with, joe? What do you help people with? We tell our audience what you help people with.

Speaker 3: 17:34

Yeah, I can do that.

Speaker 3: 17:36

Um. So my name's joe. I'm a co-founder of some businesses within the recruitment industry, so we have a group of recruitment companies that we invest in and we incubate and that's under the banner 11 Investments. So they are a group of discipline-specific recruitment companies focused on corporate services, head office recruitment in the UK and the US. And then I'm also a co-founder of a business called Recruiter Labs which is a back office provider effectively for recruitment startups.

Speaker 3: 18:10

So, say, somebody wanted to, wanted to do their own, run their own recruitment business, wasn't necessarily sure they wanted to grow. It didn't know give away any equity, didn't necessarily need any cash investment. They might just need, um, some services provided to them your product and services. You need to get things off the ground website finance, credit control, um, terms of business, all that sort of thing. So there are there are competitors in both of those spaces that I operate in. But I spend a lot of my time, um, talking to people about whether they should start their own recruitment business, and that's what I do and then subsequently help them to do that through what? Usually through one of those two vehicles. And yeah, recently it's been the same, we've been pretty busy helping people launch their own things, either under a recruiter labs banner or in 11 investments.

Speaker 1: 19:00

We've launched three businesses and 11 investments in the last um six months, so it's been it's been quite busy across both of those wow, and when can you give us a bit of a look under the bonnet, like what you know, when you're helping those kind of three people launch? What kind of challenges do they face?

Speaker 3: 19:21

and they, they need your kind of help and guidance around well, typically, we invest in very, very capable recruiters and managers of people. But what? Most of them don't know how to do is how to actually start and launch a business. So it's, it's everything that we, we talk them through. I don't like the word, but we talk them through entrepreneurship.

Speaker 3: 19:43

We talk them through running their life um without that, you know security of a of a fixed salary um, or we do provide um a level of um security, but it's it's not what they're, what they're typically used to, because they're trading that for significant equity in something. So it's everything from from, yeah, how they, how they would run their life um run their expenses um, all through, all the way through to the branding, the website, the launch, um, it's absolutely everything under the bonnet of of a, of a building, a business, um, cash flow, pnl balance sheet, everything that's involved. Um, you know, typically, when somebody comes out of a corporate uh and they have you know what they would have been told is pnl responsibility. It's it's. It's very, very far from um, from that um.

Speaker 1: 20:37

So, yes, it's pretty all-encompassing what we do with people see, that's the kind of stuff that I wish you know you learn at school. Like that's the kind of stuff that I believe we should be teaching the young people of our country, like at the a level, and and even. Um, why do they teach you that shit? Like it's just so useless. Sorry to whoever's listening, that is an advocate of british education systems, but, um, you know, like all I listen to you say that and think I wish somebody had taught me how to do that before I set my business up. And it must be so useful.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Um, and and we've, we've met because, um, several of those people have gone on to be immensely successful, um, many of them, in fact, and and we've, we've met them because they are moving in part, or sometimes in full, to a retained model, um, which seems to to suit them well. And tell us, can you tell us a bit more about, like a typical journey. You know somebody who has come to you and been through ups and downs and where. You know where they are now and how it's going for them, just to give people a feel for what that journey sort of looks like.

Speaker 3: 22:00

Specifically launching and building their business, or are you talking specifically?

Speaker 1: 22:04

Yeah, I mean I think, because I think lots of people do think about setting up on their own and they're not sure what that might look like and what timescales it might look like, or you know, and how much or little there is to do and how, when do they get get? You know, when does a typical person get to the stage where they're like, actually, you know, I've got this going now, like it's it's, it's, it's up and running, and how does it? What?

Speaker 3: 22:30

does it look like. I'd say that the the one. There's one differentiating factor between somebody who runs their own business, or decides to run their own business, and and somebody who doesn't and stays as an employer, because most people this might be a bold statement, but let's let's let's make it easy a lot of people in the recruitment industry consider setting up their own business at some point um the differentiating factor, as far as I can see, is the confidence to go and do it.

Speaker 3: 22:59

It's it not ability, it's not capability, it's not even tenure really, plenty of people with little to no experience willing to go and give it a go it's the confidence to go and do it, and there are a frustrating number of people who never do it and continue down that employed route. So I'd say that's the first thing to say, um, and it completely depends, the journey, completely depends on the appetite of the individual. Some people do their own thing because they only want to work a couple of hours a day, um. Some people do it because they want to do everything on their own terms. Some people do it because they want to earn a lot of money, more money. There are a whole whole myriad of reasons why people want to go and launch their own business. So can't really give you a um, even a train of of um.

Speaker 3: 23:52

I suppose, um how things usually work out for people, because it completely depends on the sector and the space they're working in and their appetite to be honest. We've got people who bill more money than they ever did, employed on two, three hours a day because they want to spend time with their family. And we've got people who are building businesses and growing teams and building multi-million pound businesses. So it's a whole. It takes up a real mix of um of people. Um, most of our recruiter apps customers, um, they're talking about that model for, to begin with, most of them bill in their first month and most of them end up billing more than they did when they were employed, let alone earning more. So, um, that's a. That's, on the whole, a real success story of kind of solopreneurship. Um, and within the 11 investments, um, stable.

Speaker 3: 24:49

We are far more, um, now that's, we're far more, I would say, selective over who we partner with. There. It's not, it's not about, not necessarily about that, that, but they have to be wanting to build a business that is discipline, specific, which is unique these days. Lots of businesses, lots of people, want to build sector specialists. We don't. We're building a group of discipline, specific recruiters and they need to have to want to do it in London primarily. We've got a shared space. They need to want to do it within our environment, so that so yeah, but I have a lot of conversations there before we partner with people. But the idea of that part of the idea of that is cross pollination of the customer base that we've got and incubating them within our environment.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Yeah, so it's a there are kind of two, two different pools of individuals and if people want to talk about it or find out more, can they reach out to you, joe, or is there?

Speaker 3: 25:53

absolutely, we'd love them to yeah, either route. More than happy to talk to people.

Speaker 1: 25:57

Yeah, absolutely and you're joe curtis and you're on linkedin 11 investments recruiter labs.

Speaker 3: 26:03

Yeah, that's right thank you um.

Speaker 2: 26:06

I just say as well I haven't felt to a lot of your customers, members, um, it's a real community you've built as well.

Speaker 3: 26:13

Yeah, yeah, it is yeah, I think, um, yeah, you've spoken to a lot of our recruiter labs, customers, as well as some of our um, some of our guys within 11 investments, haven't you jordan and yeah, but we this. What we're really, really trying to do is build a community of like-minded people where they can build a business for themselves, but not alone, and provide that. I suppose that sanity check that, yeah, just bounce ideas off each other. They share work with each other. They refer jobs to each other, share candidates, um, yeah, opportunity for people to ask questions. Have you come across this before? We come across that before? Um, and yeah, give them access to, yeah, great products and services for um, for less than they would be able to get it elsewhere sometimes. Um, and give them access to things that they might not be aware are on offer to them.

Speaker 1: 27:11

I like that line that build a business for yourself, but not alone. Is that the tagline?

Speaker 3: 27:16

It is now.

Speaker 2: 27:17

It's really good, sorry, we've already claimed it.

Speaker 1: 27:22

That's good.

Speaker 3: 27:23

Yeah, it can be a really really lonely place, can't it yeah?

Speaker 1: 27:27

it can, it totally can. I mean that's what attracts quite a few people to um, or rather not attracts them to us. I think it's what keeps them with us, because they find a community if they want to go, retained and um, and it massively helps because it can be really lonely it's funny though, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 27:43

I think so many of us recruiters in so many ways are probably naive as a result of overconfidence. I was. I was probably one of them. Right, I was that recruiter. I've sat there, joe in in recruitment, business and thinking I might just set up on my own right. Early on in my career and I was thinking all I need is a laptop on a phone.

Speaker 2: 28:01

Give me a laptop on a phone and I'll go and do half a million a year. Yeah, and it's like it's when you realize all of those additional the community you've got in a business to support, you've got around you to bounce ideas off and payroll and website and crm and all of these other things, yeah, tough to do it alone, isn't it? It's tough, yeah and the opposite.

Speaker 1: 28:24

I never, I never wanted to set up on my own, but ended up kind of getting getting pushed into it and I knew only too well how challenging you know, I think it. For me it's like the? It's the invoicing and the credit control and the? It's the operational side of what supports the sale. The sale is the easy bit. Everything else is is the time consuming a bit, and it's time. That's the issue. It's not that you're not capable of putting an invoice together or sending it out, but just doing that and then chasing it, and then chasing it, and then checking the bank, and then bank reconciliation, then bookkeeping and all that. Sure, it's just enough to me. Just lose the will, will to live.

Speaker 3: 29:03

Yeah, for me, I never actually did it. I never actually did it. I'm lucky enough to persuade two people to come with me when we first started, charlie and Andy, who I'm acutely aware and was acutely aware at the time, are far better at things than I am and we have a group of complementary skill sets which, for us, made it, I think, probably gave us a bit of a head start. That, and also the decision making capability you know, just have a tool on everything, so just decision making on on big things.

Speaker 3: 29:35

As you grow something, you have more decisions to make more often, so that that's really helpful.

Speaker 1: 29:40

Um yeah yeah, yeah, it's nice when you have a, a team, to be able to bounce that off. And when you're on your own, it's who do you talk to about that stuff? Your mum, your mates? Who helps you with that? With that? Yeah, I love it and, and you know, we love what you do and that's one of the reasons we wanted to bring you in to today and share with, uh, our what you do.

Speaker 1: 30:06

So, please, if you're listening and you want to talk to joe, then reach out um I wanted to share what I've been up to too, because I've been doing something quite interesting with one of our mastermind members who is building a, an engaged solution to sit between retained and executive, which is really nice, and because a retained search isn't a full. Retained search isn't always necessary, but the contingent model might not be quite cutting it for the client and actually all you need is some financial commitment that's going to allow you to put in place a process that might not be an exhaustive process. Put in place a process that might not be an exhaustive process, but it might be a commitment to a certain number of candidates on a short list, in a certain length of time, for example. And having done this before several times and made mistakes doing it, I was able to help put the guidelines around what that commitment needs to look like and steer him away from just creating a service that's better than contingent, because if you create a service that's just better than contingent, then, as Dave Eatherington always says, it's not going to go anywhere, because the customer is always going to go with the lowest common denominator it's output they're interested in. So we've just been defining the output on each and the result that we guarantee on each each, which, on a full retained search, would be that you'd commit to working with them until they reach a result, the best result that's available to them in the market at this time. However, on an engaged search, the commitment isn't enough for you to be able to do that, but you might want to commit to a certain number on a shortlist by a certain length of time, for example. So that's been really exciting and it was so fired up after.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Um, oh, the other thing that I've kind of helped steer away from, because I've seen people do it before and and I've tended not to get sucked into this be interesting to know your thoughts on this joe, actually. But I see lots of people like creating products and services and businesses and labeling and branding and building websites and service offerings without having fucking sold anything at all, without with no idea whether anyone's even interested in buying it, and I'm a big believer in like go out there and sell it. You can sell it just using this. You know you don't need all fancy tools. Go and sell a few and if customers buy it, then you've proof your concepts sarah says proof of concepts and then start creating right, what do they need and what does this look like?

Speaker 1: 32:26

And and kind of build the airplane while it's in the air. I'm I'm one of those I know some people aren't but he, I think, was inclined to fine-tune and craft marketing materials for it and then go to market with it rather than so. He spent all day on the phone and he's just messaged me, got my first like engaged project on the hook, um, and which is great because now we've got something we can work with. Right, what do they need? What are they actually? What's going to make them actually sign, buy it? Um, do you see people doing that, do you? How, do joe, do you get people that get kind of a bit too deep in the creating what things are going to look like before they actually go and do a?

Speaker 3: 33:01

real mix of people, isn't it? I'm far more in your camp of kind of get on with it and see how you get on and uh, and then and then build something around that. Um, you get up, you get a real mix of people in the industry. Uh, you get some real um planners and some doers and I think that's um, that's the. That's the difference of of really. What you're talking about is people who want to just get on with it and, you know, come to us and say I don't even need a website. I've got a lot of clients, I can do this. X, y and z, I know I can do it. Um, and you've got some people who spend hours honing their pitch deck and four or five iterations of a business plan before you've even started and and sometimes not always, but sometimes that can be telling as to how quickly things actually get off the ground.

Speaker 3: 33:46

But it takes some horses for courses and all of that. I think some people just operate differently and then, yeah, I'm definitely more in more in your camp of just kind of getting on with it first, I know it now because I consider myself more of a doer and Lou is a doer and I have worked for planners in the past.

Speaker 2: 34:04

As a doer, it can be so frustrating. You can feel so blocked, whereas me and Lou are kind of like, well, let's try it, and if it breaks we'll just stop doing it and do something different.

Speaker 1: 34:17

And if it works, we'll make it look pretty and sell it to other people. Yeah, yeah, it's good, it's really good fun, and when you're working with other doers, like it's, it's exciting, it's invigorating and, um, I'm excited to see where that goes. Uh, so we often now, at this stage, um touch on something that might be controversial. I'm not sure whether we have actually got anything controversial though, has anyone seen anything controversial recently?

Speaker 2: 34:43

I've got one, and this could tie quite nicely into what Joe does actually.

Speaker 1: 34:52

Oh, really Go on.

Speaker 2: 34:54

I saw it was you know Stephen Bartlett's podcast.

Speaker 2: 34:58

Yeah, I've never seen him so he had a guy on I can't remember what the guy's called. There's a clothing brand called Represent and a young lad founded it. He's from round near where I live and he was on Stephen Bartlett's podcast and Stephen Bartlett said as the founder of a business, what are your views on work-life balance? And he said bullshit, doesn't exist. Does not exist. If you're founding a business, in the first 10 years, work-life balance is non-existent. Everything you have goes into that business. I spent I had like a two and a half hour flight just after seeing that clip and I was like two and a half hours kind of playing it over, thinking is that right, is it not? Do I agree? Do I not agree? I don't know a clip and I was like two and a half hours kind of playing it over, thinking is that right, is it not? Do I agree? Do I not agree? I don't know.

Speaker 1: 35:50

I know it's an interesting one, isn't it? What do you think, joe? Oh?

Speaker 3: 35:56

no, it can be. It can be all-encompassing, and um, there are certainly periods of time where you don't take much rest and, um, I don't necessarily completely disagree with that person. I do think, um, I don't really get involved in this much, but I think there is a bit of a glamorization of, um, start the startup world and entrepreneurship and having your cake and eating it and ultimately, like, on one hand, if you work less hard than somebody else, then you're going to achieve less, but, on the other hand, some people it kind of takes all sorts. Some people need to work and then rest in order to get the most out of things. But I think if you asked most successful people, very successful people, I think they would probably be inclined to agree with that statement.

Speaker 3: 36:49

Um, yeah, if you're going to build something phenomenal, I think lots of other parts of your life suffer and you need to make a decision, or one needs to make a decision on what success looks like for them. And success, uh, can be measured in any way you want it to, and being successful can be having a happy home life as being the priority and and having, you know, a relatively successful business, um, financially, as a byproduct of having a very successful like it takes as I said it in numerous times before, it takes all sorts and I don't think there's one answer for for anybody, because the definition of, of of what that success is, it's down to that.

Speaker 3: 37:34

It's down to that person. And, yeah, people have different priorities what do you think like?

Speaker 1: 37:43

I think that was a very nice, well-rounded answer, joe is what I think I.

Speaker 2: 37:46

I'll say what he said I got to the point where I I decided I think they are. They don't either. Neither of them need to be in isolation and I think the two, for most business owners, weave into each other. So, like for me, work is part of my life and I wouldn't have it any other way. So when I wake up at 4am and I've got an idea about something that we can do differently or we can do better, and I stick it in the work whatsapp group, that's not sure it's like I'm passionate about it, I love it. That's why we do it, and I think most business owners feel that way like their business is their life yeah, it's funny for me at the moment.

Speaker 1: 38:27

I I'm inclined to agree with you, jordan. Like it is, and now we work from home because we're fully remote, like it, very much is just interweaved into our, into our personal lives. And now my daughter is working for us as well and she's hilarious because only like one day a week when she's not at college, but because what I didn't know because she's not working for me directly. She's hilarious because only like one day a week when she's not at college, but what I didn't know, because she's not working for me directly, she's working for Sarah, she's working for our head of marketing. She said to me the other day Mom, you know when you're doing the videos, would you just not say so many ums? And I was like what videos are you watching? She said I've been editing that video that you did on Mastermind Hot Topics, 36 ums. I've taken out of it and I'm not even halfway through, oh my God. And then the other day she sent me this screenshot. I sent it to you, jordan.

Speaker 1: 39:17

We had somebody being not very pleasant about taking them off our mailing list and Jordan like totally killed it with kindness and it was really nice. Or she'll, like she'll look at notes and notes from calls and and just say, oh so what happened with this person, you know? Did they join you? It sounded like you know they're really interested, or you got on well and and now it's like that's the conversation we're having over the dinner table. So it is. But I agree. I also agree that that the sacrifice like you, like you know, there's lots of things that have to be sacrificed because you've got to give it everything you've got. In my opinion, like you've got to give everything for it, and you can't not, like I'm like Jordan, like you see what the potential is and you see what can be done, and so I'm just going to finish this before I cook dinner, I'm just going to finish this before I go to bed, or I'm just going to compete, because if I do that, then this could happen and this could happen and this could happen.

Speaker 1: 40:16

so you kind of get sucked in any other way no no, no, yeah, it's cool, it is very cool it's a little bit off topic, but but yeah, but that kind of leads into the mindset piece, because what it reminds me of is I was watching Steve Jobs. Did I talk about Steve Jobs' speech in the last podcast? We did, I don't think. I did because.

Speaker 2: 40:36

Did Rebecca share that with you? Because she shared it with me too, did she? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:40

Yeah, shout out to Rebecca Shannon, who's awesome. Shout out to Rebecca Shannon, who's awesome.

Speaker 2: 40:47

Did you like it? Honestly, my call with her was on Monday, so I haven't listened to it, yet it's really good.

Speaker 1: 40:52

Have you ever heard of it? Steve Jobs' speech to Stanford University.

Speaker 3: 40:56

Yeah, go on, have you, have you watched it, I'm sure I have but go on.

Speaker 1: 41:00

I loved it. I'd never seen it. Well, obviously he's dead now, but it was before he died, and he talks about like three key things and he gives the Stanford University graduates like three key pieces of advice in their in their way into the world, and one of them is I won't tell you the two, just listen to it. It's a 15 minute clip and it's on YouTube and it's dead easy to find and it's brilliant. One of them is about joining the dots, which I love, loved, and that's my favorite bit of all of it. But I'll save that. You can watch it. And then, podcast listeners, let me know what you think of that bit. But the bit that I'm referring to is the bit when he talks about finding what you love and he says um, it's, it's as true for for business and your work as it is for relationships and lovers that you must find what you love. And if you haven't found it, then keep looking, don't settle.

Speaker 1: 41:58

And I think, like when you find what you really enjoy, it isn't work because you cut, you're compelled to do it. You know, like even sometimes when I'm tired or I've been looking after the kids or I've had, you know, stuff to do with at home. I'll go on a coaching call and I'll help somebody with something and then I'll see like a post, like I've just, you know, thanks for the help. I've just done this and I'm like I come off coaching calls and I'm filled, like my cup's full, and it invigorates me every time and when you get that from your work, even if you have to sacrifice other things, it isn't a chore. So that's my little piece on mindset and that's what we normally do at the end.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Like a little piece on mindset, like if you haven't found what you love, then keep looking, don't settle and maybe there are people that can help you find what you love, whether that's winning, retain a team business or starting your own business.

Speaker 1: 42:45

There you go, there you go and here we are.

Speaker 3: 42:49

We haven't talked about that and the experience I've had with you guys which is not directly me going on the course, unfortunately yet, but certainly people in our community and recruiter labs and customers and partners and employees at 11 investments and even people outside of that the feedback has been wholeheartedly positive and, and um, I just think you guys are building an incredible business that seems to, um, that seems to only get only get positive feedback. Um, as is, as is me, I do a bit of research before we committed to, uh, committed to doing anything, and it's all. It's all run true. So, um, yeah, in an industry where, um, reputations aren't usually amazing, you, you, you're doing really well and I've built an incredible business that seems to have, um, very happy customers, so it's fantastic.

Speaker 1: 43:45

That's. Thank you, Joe. That's very nice of you. All right folks. Thank you very much for listening everybody, and special thank you to Joe Curtis for joining us today. Thank you, Hope you've enjoyed it I have Thanks for having me. Pleasure.

Speaker 3: 44:00

See you all soon.

Speaker 1: 44:01

Thank you. Well, that's another episode of Retrained Search the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, LinkedIn controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver Retrained Search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearchcom. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi, we don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is.

Speaker 1: 44:33

We want to say a special thank you to our Retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our Search Mastery program that's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programmes to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Ok, thanks for listening. We'll be back.