Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Okay, yes, it has been. You know, um, there has been a lifelong what would I say used?

Speaker 2: 0:36

to be a massive frustration no, I don't care, but yeah, I get joe, um, I get jawed on a lot yeah, and and do you know what that?

Speaker 1: 0:46

that is frustration.

Speaker 2: 0:48

But it's not. It's not people calling me Jordan, it's. Who would even fucking think it's spelt like that? It's like completely illogical. Yeah, it doesn't, yeah you don't go hi Jordan.

Speaker 1: 1:03

You go hi.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Jordan.

Speaker 1: 1:05

You go hi Jordan so for all those people listening that attempted to call Jordan Jordan. Just think before you type that second O.

Speaker 2: 1:13

Just think yeah, how it sounds, and I know I've got a life of this ahead of me, not just the Jordan, but last night we landed in Manchester Airport on our way home from holiday and the guy at passport control said and is it baby gear? And I panickedly watched Steam come out of Becca's ears. Uh-oh, yeah, so we're going to have a life of that as well. No, it's not gear. How is that spelt? G-i-a? So I can kind of get that.

Speaker 1: 1:41

Yeah, but if you say it out, loud're like does that really sound like a name?

Speaker 2: 1:46

yeah, it doesn't really does it, but I think ford released a car in the uk in the past called the gear and that was spelled g-h-i-a, so well, I mean, what can I say?

Speaker 1: 1:56

you've brought that on yourself, haven't you? I know, I know yeah are you okay if your kids go? I've got an emily same as you oh, have you, I've mine's spelt strange though, mine did an ie on the end, which she gets really frustrated by yeah, no, we've gone bog standard all the way um. And then my other daughter's called beth, so I'm gonna say bog standards are weird.

Speaker 2: 2:19

Now you said we've got em, emily, we've got bog standard.

Speaker 1: 2:25

I'm not gladdened if you called your kid bog standard. It'd be great come on, bs, let's go and then I was going to say thank you for staying up late. I don't quite know what time it is there we haven't moved yet.

Speaker 1: 2:40

I think we move next weekend. So for a while it's a bit easier, yeah, so for another week or so it's easier, and then it becomes very difficult to call my parents. And you're in Canberra, is it? Yeah, and what happens in Canberra? Well, not very much. So Canberra is a really strange place. I mean it's not really strange, but obviously the capital of Australia, and myself included, had never heard of Canberra before I came to Australia. And then I spent 10 years in Australia without having never been here, never wanted to come here, never heard anything about it. So it's like 400,000 000 people and it's just a big government town. So the big federal government um department sit here, um, so it's a little bit like washington if I think about us a little bit like washington dc okay but I've never been there, but this is what I'm told um, so we're very.

Speaker 1: 3:45

It's actually a lovely place to live Lots of green space, weather is quite nice, lots of people with lots of disposable income and lots of like small to medium business. None of the big corporates are here, but the business, commercial sector is lots of like startups, consulting firms, businesses who want to be near government for whatever reason, lots of tech firms set up in. Canberra Does that help you if you've got a like a government focus. No, you focus on private, don't you um, I used to don't.

Speaker 1: 4:28

You, yeah, private and not for profit, but mostly private. So I used to work hugely to government, because most people do, because it's, you know, the biggest employer here um, but when I started this business I wasn't on any procurement panels and you have to be really to get work, um, or to supply into government. So there's a couple of clients that have that I know from a long time ago, that have procured me directly sort of off panel, which you know there's a few loopholes they can go through to do that um, but yeah, so most of my, my focus is private sector, which is fine, that's what I like. Well, if everyone else is doing government, it's nice to exactly yeah it's nice to zag if everyone else is zigging um, um, what, what?

Speaker 1: 5:13

when you say you work, you know, with private businesses, what is it that you do exactly? Um, I'm still refining that, I think, but there's a cat meowing by the window. Exec, or hard to fill roles, so roles that businesses either want to go and do a full market sweep for or they can't fill through networks or doing their own advertising. Through networks or doing their own advertising, so sometimes they'll I'll get clients who want to go to market and sort of do it properly, and sometimes I'll get those calls that we've been here, we've approached this agency, we've put an ad on seek. We haven't actually had success. Can you help us? Kind of um and what? Um? Can you give us an example? What are you working on at the moment? Yeah, so um, a good example was a company, um big canberra business that's becoming international, um big data center company. They had it wasn't, it was sort of a mid-level role commercial finance manager, and they tried to fill it themselves. They've been to two agencies, um, and then they called me and I think they had three weeks. We had three weeks before Christmas. The hiring manager was going on leave so I had to.

Speaker 1: 6:45

I didn't run a full search, we didn't have time, but I did fill it. So I sourced a candidate using lots of the search methodologies that I've learned and filled it with a great candidate actually, which was good, but that all had to happen very, very rapidly. So there's sort of companies like that and then I'm just finishing off. Actually it's been going for a couple of months a search process with a consulting firm who are a Canberra-based firm, but they needed to hire a new partner, first time they'd ever hired senior into the business externally. So we ran a search for that and I think they're just about to offer the sixth person from the search. So it's been yeah, it's been a great process, obviously for many reasons, but because they've just found people that they've really fit the business, that really fit into their values, their culture. You know people they weren't aware of and Canberra is a really small market in many ways. Everybody knows everybody. It's all about who you know.

Speaker 1: 7:54

You know the market pool is quite little um, so it's nice when they can meet lots of people that they have never heard of. They don't know that work from competitors that they would never have found. Yeah, so that's been the best process I've run, I think. How have you been able to do that? What's enabled you to be able to bring the people that they wouldn't have ordinarily seen?

Speaker 2: 8:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:21

Well, I mean probably just following the methodology that you have, you know, taught me, um, I've just, I mean probably because I'm, I mean I have done retained before, but probably, I think, like I probably had sold retainers and then delivered them, the same as I would have delivered a contingent process.

Speaker 1: 8:51

But talking, I think, getting a really good brief, talking them through the process so that we've got timelines agreed, constant steering meetings, has just meant that I've had the time to actually go and do a really good search. I've done that a couple of times and that well, since you know, joining your community. But it's the difference between having time agreed and then being able to relax and work through a search and then deliver them. You know a long list and I think they they ended up interviewing, I think, six people for the partner role because they couldn't narrow it down anymore, um, and then they've taken, you know, two people from that short list and then there was other people who weren't quite senior enough, but they've taken four of them. So it's just give it, it's just it gives me exactly as you say. It just gives me space to do the work that I need to do.

Speaker 2: 9:48

So they get the result that they want. Yeah, that's really nice yeah yeah, I, uh, I want to go right back to the start. I want to know how this all came to be.

Speaker 2: 10:01

Joe, yeah so do you know what I I remember when I first kind of started moving into retained. I had this worry that everyone I encountered was going to be a dick and like, yeah, like we've talked about expensive suits before and they were going to be really stiff and not much personality. And every person that I ever mentioned to your name your name to goes I love joe. Isn't joe great? So I want to know that journey and show people that nice people can do an amazing job at this. So where did it all start, joe?

Speaker 1: 10:33

do you mean recruitment or retained? Retained, I think yeah, yeah, I reckon. So I've been running turning stones. I think this is nine months since I, like, formally set up Turning Stones and I've been following you guys for, I reckon, probably six or so months before that.

Speaker 1: 10:59

Um, and I think I just got to a point where you know I was running a successful desk, I was making money, I was billing, everything I did was contingent, apart from the odd retainer that I would sell. But again, I was. I mean, I was only ever taught retainers through Hayes when I started working for them, as you know, 20 something years ago, wasn't ever a big part of their business or mine. But yeah, I'd sell the odd retainer for something more senior. But again, I only really thought it was valid for senior roles and then the process wasn't really any different. So I think I got to a point where I was just feeling, quite, I was very comfortable. I suppose I was comfortable. I know that's not good for me, because then I sort of get a bit complacent with the whole thing. You know, this isn't easy. Just keep going, keep going.

Speaker 1: 11:56

Then I was listening to a lot of your podcasts and listening to a lot of your stuff and I was like, yeah, there is just a better way to do this. You know I love recruitment, I know that I'm good at it, but there's a better way, because this is actually quite boring, the way like it wasn't sophisticated and I was feeling just a bit, yeah, I don't think I can sit here for another 20 years and keep doing this. So I made, you know, I suppose, a well, I think I had a fuck it moment to be honest with you and then thought, right, I'm just going to go and set up on show. And then went, oh, we're done. So yeah. So I yeah I finished up with the company that I was with had a couple of months to actually decide whether that was what I wanted to do, and then I thought, well, I can't have to, I don't know how to do anything else and I don't know, though it's, it's ball, it's ballsy.

Speaker 2: 12:56

Joe, right, not only kind of go up on your own, but I think a lot of people's what's the word I'm looking for kind of tactic in that instance would be to just go to what I'm comfortable with, what I've always done. I'm in this new business on my own. I feel vulnerable. This is all new. I'll just do what I've always done because I know it works. You've gone. I'm setting up on my own. I'm doing something new, I'm learning something new implement something new.

Speaker 1: 13:23

It's all new but I think, yeah, I mean that is very true. But I think that gave me the confidence to set up on my own was so that I could go out and say I'm actually doing this differently. The reason I've set up this business is because I know that companies or clients, whatever hiring companies are not getting what they want from recruiters. And I want to do it differently because I know that you can actually have a really good partnership with a recruiter if you, you know, if both of you can get on the same page.

Speaker 1: 13:56

So I remember talking to you in the early stages, I think, when you know we first spoke, and I remember you being a bit terrified, quite, quite terrified. Maybe I could go as far as to say that.

Speaker 1: 14:14

I think, so and being really apprehensive about whether you were going to be able to do it, whether it was going to work, whether it was going to work in your market. And to look at you now, and you know we hear from you and the projects that you're carrying out and it's just, it's a world apart. The difference is phenomenal. You know, if you look back, you should be so proud of what you've done and where you are now, and I know should be so proud of what what you've done and where you are now, and I know we are so proud of you. Um, what? What has that journey been like?

Speaker 1: 14:51

Like you, you were, you were nervous about it. You knew you wanted to do it and you kind of dived in and got started. What tell us about the journey, if you will? Um, yes, I was terrified and I still feel like that. Sometimes. You know, when you get to the end of a project and think, all right, well, that's right. Where's the next one coming from? And then I still have that kind of maybe that was just a fluke and I've always, always thought that, or maybe I've just been fluking it for 20 years. No, you're not, but yeah, I still do feel terrified. And of course, you know I'm running a business. Unlike you, I'm a single parent, um, with my two. I'm a partner with the other two other kids who live here, but we're still quite. You know, we sort of run separately on terms of the child care stuff, um so there's yeah, there's definitely an element of fear, is that the right word?

Speaker 1: 15:47

but I think now I, like I, I mean, I suppose I use it as a pressure to keep me moving forward.

Speaker 1: 15:52

If nothing else, yeah, um, you know, if I had two million dollars in the bank and didn't really need to do it, well then I would, just I wouldn't do anything, you know. So it's a bit of I use that fear and the sort of pressure to keep building the business, to keep me building it, um, but I think I do have quite a high tolerance for risk, I think, anyway, um, so I was terrified and I did. I did think, and I still do feel, when I'm in the community of people who are doing incredible things, I'd still do look at them and think, well, I'm nothing like them, you know they're. So, yeah, the stuff they do and the things that they put out. So, which is good, it's good for me, because then I go, that's where I'm. You know, I've still got something to aim for with within that community, which is brilliant they're all normally thinking the exact same thing oh, they totally are that's why they're all part of the community.

Speaker 1: 16:47

Yeah, well, that's exactly right. Yeah, um, and it is. You know, it's an incredibly impressive group of people, um, but I think, yeah, I started turning stones and I think, pressing send on my LinkedIn post to say I was launching it was you know, I think it took me about a couple of hours to do that and then think, pressing send on my LinkedIn post to say I was launching it was, you know, I think it took me about a couple of hours to do that. And then I pressed send and walked away. Right, that's it, that's it, it's done.

Speaker 1: 17:11

And then I just actually it was quite a liberating experience because when I left my last company, of course I was bound by non-compete, so I couldn't go. Well, I didn't want to go back and just farm clients that I've known for years and years. I thought I'll go back to them once, you know, there's been a respectful distance and I can sort of do things properly. So I had to go out and business develop to a whole load of new people. I just went like shot out of the gates at 100 miles an hour and just went bananas on bd, which was brilliant, because then I was, you know, I was getting out talking to loads of new people. I won lots of new business with people I'd never worked with before, and then I got really, really, really, really busy and then I didn't have time to be too scared. But then, of course, it's validation. I was sort of validated that, all right, this was the right decision. People responding, having good conversations, I'm winning work. You know, it was all exclusive.

Speaker 1: 18:10

I'd say probably 80% of it was retained. Um, so yeah, I think I've, yeah, I was, and I just said to Rupert I have to make this work because I cannot imagine ever reporting into anybody ever again. So, no, I have to make a success of this. That is it. So tell us about the first time that you won a retained piece of work with being Turning Stones. Tell us about that. How did it go? Being turning stones tell us about that. How did it go? Um, the first piece of work that I won was with a very small finance company, um, who actually had responded to some of the stuff I'd be putting on LinkedIn. Um went out and met with them and I guess I was in that meeting and I had notes by the side of me, then I had my pitch deck.

Speaker 1: 19:03

That was all ready to go and I think I just was verbatim off the stuff that you taught us to say like word for word and then I was ready with all my objections, you know, ready to handle it, and they didn't give me any. They just said, yeah, this sounds great, let's go.

Speaker 2: 19:26

And then you know when you walk out and you think that's quite a weird experience, isn't it? Amazing how many times that happens. People come to us and say so, that script you gave me I just I just basically used, I used that and and it worked I don't know how it is.

Speaker 1: 19:43

No figure, no figure, yeah, because you think, well, it'll work for you too, because you two sound so great when you say it. But how am I gonna say it? But I just, yeah, I'd practice like, I practiced it and I had it verbatim and I just was like, and then at the end they said, yeah, great, let's do it. Amazing, I remember you coming to the pitch coaching sessions. Um, uh, it was good like yours. Yours was really good, it is really good. Your women took a bit.

Speaker 1: 20:12

We fine-tuned a bit yeah yeah, we changed a few bits and there was, there was some kind of work for you to go. It wasn't like first time buying like straight away. It wasn't perfect to begin with, but you went away, you fine-tuned it, you came, you kept coming back and that was the thing that I remember, um, about your journey that you, you, just you weren't fail, you weren't going to be knocked back by anything, nothing. You're not. Not getting it right first time was not gonna put you off. You just went away, did some work on it and came back and like right, how's this? And? And it just got better and better and by the end I was like just go out there and do. It wasn't.

Speaker 1: 20:51

I like go just go now go, just do that, say, say that to everybody, um and yeah. Then when I saw your like your first win in the community, I was like like, oh my God, yes, yes, you started, because I knew that as soon as you started winning it would just roll on from there. Yeah, it does. It definitely builds confidence, of course, when you go and you do it and you get good, positive feedback and I think, and yeah, the pitch deck now. Now, I mean the pitch deck still looks the same, but my, you know, talking through it is much more conversational and much easier, much less. Looking at my notes every five seconds, um, um and the objection, I think the objection handling Jordan just kept saying yeah, yeah, it's really good, but you've got to close the end of it. You've got to close.

Speaker 2: 21:43

Always be closing, yeah yeah I think I've got that a bit better but, actually, I mean, in fairness, I haven't had to deal with many objections, which is almost a bit disappointing when you go to an objection handling session like, come on, throw it at me, um it's funny at the end of those objection handling sessions, like, I think, people, I like to think people tend to enjoy them, but sometimes they look like they've seen a bit of a ghost and they're like white from the end of it and it's, I have to say you do realize you're not going to get 27 objections customer, like they might give you one and it's how much is it going to cost you?

Speaker 1: 22:23

How much is?

Speaker 2: 22:24

it yeah, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:26

Yeah, and I always think the cleaner the explanation, the more logical the explanation you give them. You know we call it a pitch, but really it's not. It's just an explanation, isn't it, of what you want to do and why you want to do it in that way. Yeah, and the more logical that explanation is, the fewer the objections you get, because you're answering them as you're going through the explanation. Yeah, yeah, and it's not. I think you know people think recruiters often are just trying to get a massive fee for doing not very much work. But I think once you've shown the process and how you approach something and what you're going to do, they can actually see quite clearly that there actually is value in what you're offering to do for them. And, in fairness, in you know, 20 odd years of recruiting, I don't think I ever explained my process to a client.

Speaker 1: 23:25

Yeah, you know, why wouldn't you, why would you not explain what you're going to do? It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was just get someone over as fast as possible, and that seemed to be the sort of mark of a good recruiter, but you think.

Speaker 2: 23:38

I do think sometimes that idea of kind of selling limits our ability to describe it properly. I suppose what I mean by that is I went out for dinner last week with some friends of ours in New York, right, and she owns a business and we're saying how a few months ago she'd had an awful experience, right, how a few months ago she'd had an awful experience, right, She'd recruited someone through an agency. They hadn't taken any references. The gang ended up stealing from them. This had happened before, but they didn't find out. It was a bit of a mess. Right Now she's solved the problem now. But I was just explaining to her, just with no kind of self-gain here at all, just about how it all works right, and this is potentially the reason why she faced these challenges and this is what she could do differently next time yeah unlike.

Speaker 2: 24:29

It was just like penny drop after penny drop moment, but she was open to listening because I wasn't selling. It was just too much conversation, right, and I think when you can build that tone into the conversation you have, it lands so differently.

Speaker 1: 24:48

Yeah, I think there's like a perpetual challenge in recruitment where I mean, in my opinion, what we do, it is a sales role, in that we go out and we find organisations that have a problem that needs solving. And I think you know lots of people in recruitment don't want to be, don't want to feel like they're in a sales role Same as consulting. Really they don't. Nobody likes the word BD, nobody likes the word sales, but I think there's, you know there is a pool of people in every sector who sort of do the dodgy sale or sell something that they really think is fit for purpose. It's just about getting the fee, which probably your friend's experience was one off.

Speaker 1: 25:33

But I think what you know, what I do, and what I've sort of done probably better since being part of your community is I'm selling what I can do, but not in a way that I won't take no for an answer or I'm thinking well, I can do this, it's probably not really what you want, but I'm going to sell it to you anyway because I want the fee. It's finding out, all right, what's your problem, and then maybe I'm not the right person to solve it and maybe a retained solution isn't right. Maybe we can just do it on a contingent basis, who knows? But it's solution solving, I suppose, isn't it? It's offering a viable solution that actually is fit for purpose, that you know is going to benefit the person at the other end, not just cost them a fortune and then they go. Well, that was not worth it, thanks. Thanks for that really shit experience. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:27

So it's yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:28

Yeah, sales. I think I've always just thought sales is understanding what the problem is, and if you've got a solution that you know will help the person, well then it's about letting them know how and why and what it costs and how it's going to work. And how it's going to work and how it's going to help them.

Speaker 2: 26:43

I suppose yeah, so true so true and Joe just in terms of Australia, right, so anyone that's listening in Australia, what have you found? Taking the solution to new customers, old customers, to market. Is there a need for it? Is it happening a lot?

Speaker 1: 27:02

huge need need for it. I think I've never recruited in the UK. My recruitment career started here, you know, when I finished backpacking and having a great whole time. But I, you know, I worked for Hayes where it was pretty much all Brits who'd come over from the UK recruitment market and I think the recruitment market here is it's not as saturated as it is in the UK and market and I think the recruitment market here is it's not as saturated as it is in the UK and Europe certainly, and it's a lot newer.

Speaker 1: 27:29

I think it's probably only I don't know 20-30 years old here. There was no Australians working in recruitment when I started, um, so the market here is much newer. Um, but yeah, I think there's definitely a need for it. No question, um, and I think, like any service delivery sector, there's always someone who's willing to drop their fees.

Speaker 1: 27:57

There's always someone who's willing to do it cheaper, um, so it's sort of like a race to the bottom, often with big recruitment companies or recruitment firms that do contingent, because of course it usually is a race.

Speaker 1: 28:10

You're usually competing against each other and often it's then on price or it's on who gets the CVs over quick enough. So I think there's just a general need to professionalise the sector and I think recruitment could certainly fall into professional services as a sector, you know, like consulting or you know legal, whatever it is, because we are solving a problem, actually a really critical problem that companies have, which is people, um, and if you get that wrong, the cost of it is huge. So when you say there is a real need for it, what, where, where is that need? Like, what do you? What are the symptoms that you see, that I think there's a need because, again, 99% I'd say. I mean there are some firms in Australia who are doing exceptional work, really really good work, but there's probably still more who are doing that old school contingent recruitment, hiring low-cost consultants, and some companies will train them really really well, but some won't, and it's that sort of perpetual cycle and then good people leave recruitment because they just think this is absolutely rubbish as an industry.

Speaker 1: 29:40

What am I doing? I'm working really hard. Then things fall over, clients get frustrated. So I think you know there's still that level of frustration between hiring companies and recruitment agencies broadly, where we're not seen as a value add, we're seen as a gotta go and call a bloody recruiter because we, just we, we haven't got time to do this ourselves or we've gotten out of it. It hasn't worked. So, you know, ring three people see we can get. So there's still that same. And you know, I think the recruitment industry is. You know we probably could help ourselves a little bit more if everybody lifted up. But as I say there's, there's always going to be someone who's willing to, you know, drop their pants or do it cheaply faster. Um, you know, like in every sector, it's not just recruitment, it's, it's everywhere.

Speaker 1: 30:36

But yeah, but that's what I think right because we can go and solve those problems. Absolutely, it absolutely is. There's yeah, yeah, 100. There's definitely a need to then go in and say, well, there is a different way to do this. Um, that's what it looks like, yeah were you a little surprised, joe?

Speaker 2: 30:54

because I know you said you were a little scared at the beginning. Right, have you been surprised how possible it is unless you've done very, very well? I'm not taking anything away from the hard work and your skills, but yeah, I remember when I, when I went on this journey right back in kind of 2018-19, thinking it was going to be a lot harder than it actually was once I had the knowledge and the confidence yep, um, yes, I agree, I.

Speaker 1: 31:27

I mean I'm always nervous to say stuff like this out loud in case I jinx myself, but it's it. I think, yeah, the whole process, from the, you know, the diagnostic process and really digging deep to find the problems and then delivering and getting you feedback from clients and working with clients and them saying, you know, this has been a great process, this has been. You know, yeah, this has been fabulous. It does feel easier and it feels easier than to go and have that same conversation and ask for referrals. But yeah, I did think it was going to be probably a bigger leap. Um, and there have been some learnings, definitely, um, but yeah, easy, you know, I hate to use that word. Like I say, I'm scared I'm going to jinx myself, I say, yeah, piece of cake, but yes, it, I think it's just process right, the whole process flows I suppose it's probably the wrong words and that was I know.

Speaker 2: 32:31

I know what you mean. It's achievable right achievable yes, it is absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:37

So what would you say to someone listening to this that's maybe dare I say it working for a firm and thinking about setting up on their own? Um, somebody who maybe has dabbled in a bit of retain but, like you, maybe making it up as they go along, as most people do, or not really doing anything differently? The same sort of person that's working contingently and knows that there is a better way, starting to listen to this kind of stuff? What would you say to someone kind of tentatively starting to think, oh yeah, that sounds better. What? Yeah, yeah, um. Well, well, I'd say in terms of, like, going out and setting up on your own. You know, you just got to do that. When you're ready to do it, I think it is a big leap of faith and you know, you do have to kind of think if it all goes wrong, what will I do?

Speaker 2: 33:34

And I just think, if it all goes wrong, I'll just go and get a job like that, it doesn't matter what.

Speaker 1: 33:38

But I'll have to just try it. But I know not, like, like, like I say I've got quite a high tolerance for risk, but not everybody does. So I think you've just got to be, it's got to be the right thing for you to do. But if you are going to do it I would 100 say, to join a community like this one we'll give you so well a business setup for a start, like all the proposals, the terms and all that sort of stuff is worth it. Just that covers probably the cost of even doing this program.

Speaker 1: 34:16

But I think just having the community and having someone to ring up and say I've got this thing and I don't really know what to do with it, or I've got this problem and I don't know what to do, or this client's proposed something to me and I don't really know how to price it, how to do anything with it. That is so important because if you're doing it on your own, if I was doing it on my own, I would have just gone back to doing stuff the only way that I know how to do it, which would have just been going. I'll just do stuff contingent, fine, um. So I think if you're, you know to anybody who's thinking, god, there has to be a better way, surely. Or is thinking about going out on your own, particularly if you're going out on your own joining a community like this where you know I have had to feel so what's the right way? My grandma's gonna go wobbly here, but I've had to fill far fewer roles and work on far fewer roles than I had to running a desk for someone else to earn more money than I was doing running a desk for someone else.

Speaker 1: 35:27

So the retained model and doing it properly just gives you, you know, security that you've got cash flow, you can forecast much more easily and you've actually got time to do the process. So there's time to do the process. And, of course, if you're doing it on your own, you've got to do everything the invoicing, you know, your linkedin post or like everything. So you need to have time. So making sure you're getting paid for that is yeah, it's a game changer. I don't think, I don't reckon it's sustainable if you were just doing contingent. It's way too stressful, way too stressful. Well, yeah, yeah. So what would I say?

Speaker 1: 36:10

just yes, yeah, come and do your course that would yeah, don't hesitate, because it yeah, and it all like it will pay for itself, you know the financial investment is so what's the word like? The return on it is huge. I mean, I think I covered the cost of it in month one, you know, check, and then everything else is you know. That's good, that's good. It's so nice to see your journey and, as you know um you're surrounded by other people on their journeys and sharing their um.

Speaker 1: 36:53

You know their lessons learned along the way um we love having you as part of the community and imparting your knowledge and experience um amongst the people that are coming on the journey behind you, and we're really grateful for you spending time with us today to share that story a bit wider, so that people who are like you were how long ago was that now? A couple of years ago, 18, no, 18 months. Well, when I first joined, you not even that, that would have been just over a year. Just over a year.

Speaker 2: 37:26

There you go, yeah so I think I joined yeah, I did all.

Speaker 1: 37:30

I did most of the course while I was still working out. If I was actually brave enough to go out on my own and that just gave me, I think, the all right, I can do. This there's, this is how I'm going to pitch myself, this is where I'm going to put myself and I've got, you know, this support network behind me so I can do it.

Speaker 1: 37:51

So, yeah, and now that stone has turned yeah, that stone has turned and we're so excited to see what, what's next for you, because there's each time the projects are, you know, different. You're starting to get, yeah, interesting, more strategic, more complex pieces of work and that will just continue. Yeah, yeah, hopefully. Yeah, I mean I'm open to conversations about any pieces of work, just, and if I think you know a client actually on that government client who I had worked with loads before, he rang me and just said I just need some help with some stuff, how can I procure you? You tell me I can take payments however you want, but so we did so, yeah, I've just done a piece of work for him which actually was supporting him with um, not search. So they'd done that bit, but they just couldn't process the application. So, um, I was like, yeah, I'm quiet, I'll take that on, and actually that's been quite an interesting learning curve because that could potentially be another thing that I can do, you know, on, you know, alongside search.

Speaker 1: 39:07

So yeah, it's, it's incredible the types of opportunities that open up when you have the time to have a proper relationship with the client, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 1: 39:18

it absolutely is yeah, good it's, it's really good. But thank you both as well. Huge thank you to you both for sharing your you know expertise and just being you know, just being great to jump on a you know collab call or whatever it is. It's always fun, it is always fun. Thank you, jo, so much for sharing your story and I hope those of you listening are inspired by where Joe has come from and where she is now and the future, the bright future that she has ahead. And if any of you do want to talk to us, then just reach out and we'll spend some time with you.

Speaker 2: 40:00

As you know, our diaries are there for you to come talk to us Well and better if anybody wants to meet us, if you're a fellow Australian of Joe's, we are in Australia. We're in Melbourne from the 7th to the 11th of May and we are in Sydney from the 11th until the 16th, that's so true so if you want to grab a beer, a coffee.

Speaker 1: 40:24

Put some prawns in the barbie. Hollering at the poor girl yeah, we do want to do that and we also wanted to share this story because it's showing those of you, because we get a lot of questions, don't we, about Australian, whether it works in the Australian market, and although we have, I I think, about 15 percent of our members in australia, yeah, it's still.

Speaker 1: 40:52

We're still new. We're still new, you know, in your neck of the woods. So, um, you'd be amongst the first people, like joe is uh, discovering the, the, the world that's open to you and and that, that place that you can play, that solves the problems that other people aren't solving. So come and see us in sydney or melbourne, or book some time in, and then we can arrange to see you in in sydney and melbourne and book a time that works for you.

Speaker 2: 41:20

Thank you very much I'm gonna let you both go and we'll see you next episode.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Thanks, joe, bye well, that's another episode of retrained search, the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, linkedin controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver retained search. Get involved in our next episode, send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearchcom. And don't be shy. Connect with us on LinkedIn and come and say hi, we don't bite, unless you're a Shrek firm, that is. We want to say a special thank you to our Retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve.

Speaker 1: 42:09

It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our Search Mastery Program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back.